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Joel
17-07-2004, 13:05
[Part 2]

The terrorists then shift their tactics to bombing civilian airliners when they bomb TWA Flight 840 in April of 1986 that killed 4 and the most tragic bombing, Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988, killing 259.

Clinton treated these terrorist acts as crimes; in fact we are still trying to bring these people to trial. These are crimes, but, far more importantly, they are acts of war.

The wake up alarm is getting louder and louder.

The terrorists decide to bring the fight to America. In January 1993, two CIA agents are shot and killed as they enter CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.

The following month, February 1993, a group of terrorists are arrested after a rented van packed with explosives is driven into the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City. Six people are killed and over 1000 are injured. Still this is a crime and not an act of war?

The Snooze alarm is depressed again.

Then in November 1995 a car bomb explodes at a US military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killing seven service men and women.

A few months later in June of 1996, another truck bomb explodes only 35 yards from the US military compound in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. It destroys the Khobar Towers, a US Air Force barracks, killing 19 and injuring over 500. The terrorists are getting braver and smarter as they see that America does not respond decisively.

They move to coordinate their attacks in a simultaneous attack on two US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. These attacks were planned with precision.

They kill 224. America responds with cruise missile attacks and goes back to sleep.

The USS Cole was docked in the port of Aden, Yemen for refueling on 12 October 2000, when a small craft pulled along side the ship and exploded killing 17 US Navy Sailors. Attacking a US War Ship is an act of war, but we sent the FBI to investigate the crime and went back to sleep.

And of course you know the events of 11 September 2001. Most Americans think this was the first attack against US soil or in America. How wrong they are. America has been under a constant attack since 1979 and we chose to hit the snooze alarm and roll over and go back to sleep.

In the news lately we have seen lots of finger pointing from every high officials in government over what they knew and what they didn't know. But if you've read the papers and paid a little attention I think you can see exactly what they knew. You don't have to be in the FBI or CIA or on the National Security Council to see the pattern that has been developing since 1979.

The President is right on when he says we are engaged in a war. I think we have been in a war for the past 23 years and it will continue until we as a people decide enough is enough.

America needs to "Get out of Bed" and act decisively now. America has been changed forever. We have to be ready to pay the price and make the sacrifice to ensure our way of life continues. We cannot afford to keep hitting the snooze button again and again and roll over and go back to sleep.

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, Admiral Yamamoto said "...it seems all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant." This is the message we need to disseminate to terrorists around the world.

Support Our Troops and support President Bush for having the courage, political or militarily, to address what so many who preceded him didn't have the backbone to do both Democrat and Republican. This is not a political thing to be hashed over in an election year this is an AMERICAN thing. This is about our Freedom and the Freedom of our children in years to come.

If you agree that it is obvious that we don't like war and that, unfortunately war has been waged against us for many years while we enjoyed the freedom of our daily lives with our heads in the sand, and if we don't finally take forcefull military action to stop it now we will surely lose this precious free country, then please forward this to as many people as you can especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class and who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action.

Captain Ouimette

uninformed
17-07-2004, 17:11
Originally posted by Joel
[Part 2]

If you agree that it is obvious that we don't like war and that, unfortunately war has been waged against us for many years while we enjoyed the freedom of our daily lives with our heads in the sand, and if we don't finally take forcefull military action to stop it now we will surely lose this precious free country, then please forward this to as many people as you can especially to the young people and all those who dozed off in history class and who seem so quick to protest such a necessary military action.

Captain Ouimette

There are so many misstatements in this misguided tirade it is difficult to know where to begin so I'll begin with this particular piece of drivel.

It isn't obvious that Americans don't like war. Americans have been engaged in war almost continually since the mid-1700s. From the American Revolution, the French and Indian War, the War against Mexico, the war against the Indians, etc etc. More recently the Korean "conflict", the Vietnam War, invasions of Grenada, the taking of Panama, support for the Afghan war against the Soviets, and so on. I think they/we rather like war - despite protestations to the contrary.

Are you trying to suggest that Iraq is a "necessary military action"? What, pray tell, makes it necessary?

Despite all your effort it isn't even clear what you are making a case for here. What was the point? Your arguments are poor and your conclusion is lacking.

cyclby
17-07-2004, 18:05
Jesus man, I can't read all that! Can you edit that bad boy down a bit for the "Too short of an attention span" folks such as myself. Looked like a Dave UK effort of heroic proportions.
Regards,
C

koba65
17-07-2004, 20:28
Originally posted by uninformed
There are so many misstatements in this misguided tirade it is difficult to know where to begin so I'll begin with this particular piece of drivel.

It isn't obvious that Americans don't like war. Americans have been engaged in war almost continually since the mid-1700s. From the American Revolution, the French and Indian War, the War against Mexico, the war against the Indians, etc etc. More recently the Korean "conflict", the Vietnam War, invasions of Grenada, the taking of Panama, support for the Afghan war against the Soviets, and so on. I think they/we rather like war - despite protestations to the contrary.


You attack his "tirade" with misstatements of your own! Nice one!! I don't see how you put the Revolutionary War and the French and Indian War in the same realm as the other local conflicts and wars we have participated in. Firstly, the Revolutionary "War" was fought only after the British invaded to put down a rebellion, the French and Indian War was fought when America was part of the Crown and not an independent country engaged in foreign policy decisions.

The Korean War was a UN "police" action after the Stalin-induced invasion of the South. He thought the US and its allies wouldn't react as they did.

The Vietnam War: no argument there - complete mess. US arrogance led to an increase in our presence there (Johnson admin. thought we do better than the French, etc.). War was micromanaged from the White House, tying the hands of the military and ensuring a "defeat" even though we won all the battles.

Grenada: Cold War - had to be done.
Panama: Ousted a dictator who was once friendly to us - not sure of the value of the action since control of the Canal was already decided during the Carter years of weakness.

As far as Americans "liking" war and your list of "wars" is concerned, I might suggest you read the history of other current and former world powers and tally the number of wars in which they were engaged and you'll see that in comparision we don't seem too aggressive (unless the current trend continues...)

Ned Kelly
17-07-2004, 21:35
Originally posted by koba65
(Johnson admin. thought we do better than the French, etc.).

Er, Kennedy was the source there. Johnson's little finger had more moral fibre than JFK.

koba65
17-07-2004, 21:48
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
Er, Kennedy was the source there. Johnson's little finger had more moral fibre than JFK.

Kennedy was the source, but Johnson escalated the action (probably following what Kennedy would have done? Who knows.)... I guess the better way of putting it would be that American "arrogance" at the time led us to believe we would show the French how it would be done properly. The French actually begged Ike's administration to help them out, but he smartly held off (although Ike did send some advisors)..

uninformed
18-07-2004, 07:16
Originally posted by koba65
You attack his "tirade" with misstatements of your own! Nice one!!
As far as Americans "liking" war and your list of "wars" is concerned, I might suggest you read the history of other current and former world powers and tally the number of wars in which they were engaged and you'll see that in comparision we don't seem too aggressive (unless the current trend continues...)

My point was that it isn't at all clear that Americans dislike war.

By arguing with my counter (to one small point) of the posters statement that we need to support the Bush administration in their war are you suggesting agreement with the original poster's support for the war in Iraq? If so, on what basis do you support this occupation?

jbjb
18-07-2004, 14:56
I thinnk MOST Amreicans dislike war but a lot of decision makers support war as it is big business. What would the country do with all the unemployed soldiers and unused bombs planes tanks etc. War in itself support a ton of copanies and a huge workforce that that would have to be retrained if war was less.

But war is really a waste as all the destruction has to be rebuit (though that alos creates jobs) The figure for teh Iraq war is about $200 billion or $3,500 each adult in USA but actaully the cost (an profit) is perhaps 5 or more time that.

Think of all the countries that now really Hate the USA and how many young men and women have beeen turned into terrorists as a result of the war action in Iraq. The money now that the USA has to spend ust to ty adn protect itseslf it huge.

Of course war salves not problems but it does propup halliburton earnings.

The current pres of the USA is a real nutcase. There are terrorist threats in the world from silmilar nutcases but thenew recruits are mainly uneducted unemplayed yourg men and some women. YOU cannot kill them all as more come everydy as long as the situation remains the same.

They need schools and training and factories and offices etc to provide for jobs. How many well eduacated money earning suicide bombers do you see.

This guy Bush will not even have meetings with Bin Laden or others like him. YOU cannot solve a probem wtih bombs as it brings more problems. YOu need to fix the cause - and that is no or low earnings. Puttin $500 billio into education and training programs and housing and recreational programs is a step in fixing the problem not bombs.

I feel sorry for all the young men who have turned into such desperate people that will even blow themselves up as they see nothing good in their future. IF someone does not help them then the situation will just kep getting worse adn Bush has gone a long way toward making it a lot worse as all of us living in Europe understand

Zephyr
18-07-2004, 15:15
Urrrahhhh Putin!!

kniga
18-07-2004, 16:31
jbjb,

Your sense of history is as poor as your writing. Did you sleep through your English classes as well as Civics and History? Talk about "recruits are mainly uneducted unemplayed yourg men and some women," you look like a ripe candidate by your own definition yourself.

gadfly
18-07-2004, 18:25
I still don't see why the US has to give Israel so much friggin' money. The Israelis have morally isolated themselves, not only from their A-rab neghbors, but from the Europeans and everyone else except the US. I don't think Israel should exist - Jews are much more likable as a diaspora.

boscoe
18-07-2004, 18:38
Originally posted by kniga
jbjb,

Your sense of history is as poor as your writing. Did you sleep through your English classes as well as Civics and History? Talk about "recruits are mainly uneducted unemplayed yourg men and some women," you look like a ripe candidate by your own definition yourself.

Ad hominem attacks KnigaÖ. Iím disappointed in you!

gadfly
18-07-2004, 19:04
I thought of a commercial the other day:

[black and white 1950's scene of a teacher in front of a class]

Teacher: Cl**** I want you to draw pictures of what you want to be when you grow up.

[montage of children's drawings]

Child 1: When I grow up, I want to be a politician, so my friends can give me money to make decisions for everyone in America.

Child 2: When I grow up, I want to be a lobbyist, so that I can take politicians to fancy restaurants and tell them what to spend money on.

Child 3: When I grow up, I want to be a soldier, so that everyone will think I'm a hero for torturing people!

Voiceover: If you think that America's leaders are sending your children the wrong message by being poor role models...

Child 4: I don't know what I'll be when I grow up, but I know that I have to kill the people that hurt my mommy and daddy.

Voiceover: Just think of what message they're sending all the other kids.

cyclby
18-07-2004, 21:34
Originally posted by boscoe
Ad hominem attacks KnigaÖ. Iím disappointed in you!

Did you deadbeats actually read that mess? I could not even get one paragraph in without fallin' asleep?
Love ya like a brother!!
C

kniga
18-07-2004, 22:28
Boscoe,

In the absence of sensible writing that can be read with ease and understood even by the likes of a Northie like you, bringing attention to the writer's abysmal failure is a blessing. He should either shape up his language or spare the rest of us from struggling through his posts.

uninformed
19-07-2004, 06:43
Originally posted by gadfly
I still don't see why the US has to give Israel so much friggin' money. The Israelis have morally isolated themselves, not only from their A-rab neghbors, but from the Europeans and everyone else except the US. I don't think Israel should exist - Jews are much more likable as a diaspora. On that basis we'd need to forget about the idea of a Palestinian state as well. And then "we" could proceed with elimination of all Muslim states since "they" are more likely as a diaspora as well.

Then there are the Americans......remind me when they are likeable?

Blaked
19-07-2004, 10:16
Yeah - come to think about it - why aren't the Turks still in charge? Turkish is an easier language to pick up than Arabic. The American government hands so much money out to these countries. The US thinks it's a minimal amount because its like less than 50 billion a year, but that's half of Russia's entire budget.

Zephyr
20-07-2004, 00:25
The US is very much like the woman/man who continues to write checks on an overdrawn bank account. The chickens will come to roost sooner or later.

am4rw
20-07-2004, 01:03
Boring day at work, so tried to read this. Never could quite get the point. I guess if your country is hit by a terrorist bombing, you have the right, no, obligation, to go out and bomb somebody. Not sure who. Doesn't seem to matter who the terrorists are, or where they're from. Just anyone the President decides he doesn't like this week.

Lucky thing the English didn't hit on this strategy back when they were having trouble with the IRA. Might have invaded Portugal, or bombed Romania.

camaeljax
20-07-2004, 17:19
Captain Ouimette,

Wow - - this is what the Cato institute and other associated fascist groups do to young minds....
As a veteran of eigh years in the US military and a protesting patriot -
If you want my advice -
(!) Watch a little less Fox news
(2) Read a few more history books not churned out by the revisionist my country right or wrong crowd
(3) Seek professional therapeutic help

Joel
20-07-2004, 18:58
In short, anybody who doesn't agree with your position is either a fascist, either ill, etc...

You have a great sense of democracy :)

> Seek professional therapeutic help

Seeing your avatar, you seem to need some :)

Zachariah
20-07-2004, 19:17
CJ,
I would not agree with Joel on his reactionary points anymore than I agree with your attempt to place anyone who disagrees with you into some sort of a pigeon hole so that you can justify your own brand of hate.

I am also ex military, a patriot and a believer in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These documents are not to be molded by the Bush Patriot Act , Bill Clinton or Sarah Brady.

You are only a protesting patriot when a Democrat is not in charge!

You and Joel are the same guy.....just different ends of the horse. You can choose which end.
Z

sir Gay
20-07-2004, 20:25
Originally posted by uninformed


Are you trying to suggest that Iraq is a "necessary military action"? What, pray tell, makes it necessary?


he must have a dacha or a plantation of potatoes there. like muscovites in chechnya.:D :D :D

sir Gay
20-07-2004, 20:36
Originally posted by uninformed

By arguing with my counter (to one small point) of the posters statement that we need to support the Bush administration in their war are you suggesting agreement with the original poster's support for the war in Iraq? If so, on what basis do you support this occupation?

correct me if i'm wrong, i saw it in the news the other day that bush explores the possibility to be re-elected for the third term should the country be facing terrorist threats. then it's quite logical to escalate the iraq "liberation campaign".
:confused:

doesn't it make him look very much like byelorussian lukashenko?:)

uninformed
20-07-2004, 22:46
Originally posted by sir Gay
correct me if i'm wrong, i saw it in the news the other day that bush explores the possibility to be re-elected for the third term should the country be facing terrorist threats. then it's quite logical to escalate the iraq "liberation campaign".
Actually, the discussion was whether a terrorist attack might allow for or provide the need for the November election to be postponed. Not exactly a third term.

I think the two parties should sign a agreement to abide by the election results regardless of any attack.

Consider yourself corrected.

uninformed
20-07-2004, 22:47
Originally posted by Zephyr
The US is very much like the woman/man who continues to write checks on an overdrawn bank account. The chickens will come to roost sooner or later. And the US has plenty of company in this regard.