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pengwn9
15-07-2004, 14:23
Yesterday as I passed through a normally quiet perehod, there sat a gypsy woman with an infant and a boy about 5. The little boy quickly followed along begging me for money. He was really very young and quite adorable. And filthy. I have been told and told never to give these people money. What I really wanted to do was take him home and give him a bath and a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich.

So he kept following and I kept refusing. I felt really really awful.
He was so little to be put is such a desperate position and how hard for him to deal with with rejection after rejection.

So what's the deal with these begging gypsy children? Do you give them money? Why do I keep hearing that it's dangerous to cave in to their begging? They certainly looked destitute. I give money to the old ladies in the Metro. I've seen these kids before and they just break my heart and I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I hate to reject them.

Ned Kelly
15-07-2004, 14:25
a clip around the ear and mum a kick in the bum, a big one...

if i have an apple or a banana or something i give them that...kids are kids

Moscow Wolf
15-07-2004, 14:44
Clip my kids around the ear and I'll be around with me baseball bat. Sorry Peng, I'll tell em to lay off you next time. You wouldn't want to take me home and bath me would you? Could do with some free running HOT water.

Ned Kelly
15-07-2004, 14:47
that's why you have to feed them directly peng, otherwise dad snaffles the chappie.

pengwn9
15-07-2004, 14:47
Tell him to lay off? Are you serious? This was a small child about kindergarden age. Do ya'll give these people money? Why, or why not? They look pretty pathetic to me.

Guest777
15-07-2004, 14:54
Peng

Don't worry too much about those children. They make about $100 per day by begging... And we have to work really hard for that...

Kshisya
15-07-2004, 14:59
Originally posted by Moscow Wolf
You wouldn't want to take me home and bath me would you?

wow why the hell I ' ve never got such a proposition from you????? :eek:...:rolleyes:...:cry:

:D:D

J.D.
15-07-2004, 15:01
I know the feeling well. The children are the victims here. At first that is. Circumstances and possibly their parents have made them victims and by giving them some change you alleviate some of the problem in the short run. In the long run you contribute to it by helping their parents teach them to beg.

I saw this one beggar girl in the same place for about 3 years. I saw her go from a prepubesant girl of about 10 to a some what developed young lady of about 13. At first she was a bit cute begging as some kids can be but at 13 it was really pitiful looking. I'm sure you can guess what my imagination saw in her very near future.

I know just how you feel Gwen. many times I've wanted to go to the parent and say,"Ok, how much for the kid?" Pay them the 1 or 2 hundred that they ask and then take the kid home with me.

ps if you're wondering why they chase you harder and longer than they do others, it's because they can sense what you're feeling.

Moscow Wolf
15-07-2004, 15:13
Joking aside, they're victims of society I guess. You're lucky now, years back they used to hunt in packs, kids and women with babies strapped to their backs, they could clean out an unsuspecting foreigner in seconds, just razor your pockets right out. They used to operate around Belorusskaya, Tverskaya and the Arbat areas. The only way to survive an attack was to do a banshee scream and lash out hitting anything within range.

The Militia seem to have moved them on now, but everytime I see those kids on the New Arbat up by Mollies now, I just growl at them and they get the message and go away. They're probably full of lice and God knows what or maybe they have a better resistance to diseases, I don't know.

I do have a heart, but its like all the beggers on the Metro system, giving money to the first hard luck story encourages further begging; only the former Military guys with arms and legs missing will I give money too, even if I know that it is a big controlled scam business here in Moscow. If the guy only gets a bottle of Vodka a day as a percentage and it helps stiffle his sorrow then. I'll give 10 to 20 roubles.

Random
15-07-2004, 15:19
I am a sucker for the old ladies with icons ...always spare a rouble or 10 for them ...figure that way somebody is praying for me !!

Kshisya
15-07-2004, 15:41
Okay I kinda didnt get the point of this thread?One of those useless and that goes-to-no-where discussion.
What comments you ppl are going to exchange or expect to hear??? Or going to compete whos got more/less heart and go into fights on that? Or showing off who did what?

Can do anything bout the problem? if not why debates? If you DID something WORTHY (like adopting a child from the street for example) do share your opinion, please! BUT I do doubt there are any ppl on this site (if so than no more than a few) who really can tell something worth reading on that.

Can influence this problem in Russian/any society to change it for the better? - common share! WELCOME!


What I really wanted to do was take him home and give him a bath and a peanutbutter and jelly sandwich. so why wouldnt you just do so?? I just cant get why ppl show their good intentions that finally do not come to any resultsas if I was going to help, but somehow it didnt happen


Pay them the 1 or 2 hundred that they ask and then take the kid home with me. you talking bout bananas or what???? Feel like buying a kid from the street? Wouldnt comment bout the idea as it is which sounds just :cussing:.so why havent you offered eh???????

The only nice comment on this Ned has made in the second post, but actually reading your comments is pretty embarrassing, I feel embarrassed for you actually for discussing it like you do in hereWhy wouldnt you just keep some topics out of the chat-world??

Dont you realize yourself that you dont have anything to say that wouldnt sound banal, foolish or bragging?

bred.

pengwn9
15-07-2004, 15:43
Yeah, me too. I fill up my pockets with coins before I go out on the metro and give them all away to the old ladies. Great god, 80 year old women should not be standing around all day begging for rubles. There but for the grace of god go I...

But the little kids. And their mothers sitting right there, in essence, pimping them. So I'm torn between not wanting to support such an indecency, yet it's obvious that they are dirt poor and desperate people. Why else would a mother stoop to such measures?

So do I give them my money? Maybe they need it more than I do.
Is it charity or a scam?

pengwn9
15-07-2004, 15:45
Thanks for your thoughtful input, Kshisya.

Now back to the polularity poll....

plastique
15-07-2004, 15:55
must....refrain....need growly cats!!!!.....am in a bad mood and don't want to post anything i'll regret.....bu ti'll pm it peng...

Kshisya
15-07-2004, 15:56
I am not going to do any "thoughtful input" to this one as I do prefer to keep some things to myself and in some cases , you know, it's better to say nothing than anything ;)

I just do believe that if this thread was more of a question:

How can I help begger children?
Do you know any organizations or orphanges that i could contact to offer my help?
Is it legal to adopt a beggar child from the street?

or else what ...it would deserve more attention than the way you ppl express it on the site on a regulr basis, besides might deliver some real useful info.

Remember how Ghost did it???? he posted that he can donate product and asked if anybody could help with info on what organizations might need it. That's the way.

and yea sure i get back to my popularity threads :jester: ..:suspect:

Moscow Wolf
15-07-2004, 16:04
If only life was so simple K Girl, give those street kids free handouts of Baby Food and my guess is that their Parents would sell it and still continue begging.

It's a way of life for a lot of them, I'm convinced. The Parents wouldn't let anyone adopt them untill they had become useless in the begging ranks. i.e. became adult.

Peng just made an observation and expressed her feelings, we added our 10 cents worth, worth it or not. If she had wanted to know whether or not she could really adopt or help the kids then I guess she would've posted it in Information.

Seems to be a lot of 'growly' folks about today, must be the weather.

Get back to stalking me, it'll make you feel better! wink.

J.D.
15-07-2004, 16:06
We can't post some feelings without suggesting an answer Kshisya?
If that's the case then no more complaints from you about the weather, until you're ready to do something about it.

J.D.
15-07-2004, 16:08
just read Wolf's post after posting mine. I am feeling a bit growly at the moment. Hope my last post didn't come as growly toward you Kshisya, it wasn't meant to be.

Kshisya
15-07-2004, 16:18
Originally posted by Moscow Wolf
If only life was so simple K Girl...

Wolf, am not 5 year old and not so dumb as one might think.

I think i made my point clear so dont want to repeat it. Sorry but reading bout cents and 10 rubles given to street ppl gives me shivers of embarrasment down my spine.

ALL NORMAL ppl try to help the ones in need in one way or another, ALL NORMAL ppl feel sympathy and heart. I just don't think that any of us did or would do anything substantial that would be worth mentioning and make life of some particular begger child better.





ok sorry, am getting bmessy... last comment for this one.

PPL sorry for intrusion! won't disturb no more ;)


PS i gave up stalking you :cry: your heart is made of steel! :p

Ned Kelly
15-07-2004, 16:19
yeah, everyone's gone f'ng troppo...often see it with the english in darwin...

...come to think of it just about everywhere...;)

Ghost
15-07-2004, 16:34
I give them whatever spare change I have. If they use it to buy booze or drugs or they're bad people, etc. It's not my sin.

How will I stand on judgement day and say "No, I didn't give 10 rubles to the beggar woman, but I spent 99.00 a month on internet access."

So I'm a sucker. I sleep fine.

I'm also noticing the "growly" term being used rather often lately. I expect royalties.

J.D.
15-07-2004, 16:38
I've often thought that when I retire I will take in some street kid. Yeah I know easy to say now. Well I'll see what happens.

Filimon
15-07-2004, 17:13
I never give money either in Moscow or in London, although for different reasons. For Moscow the reason is that 100% of begging "business" is controlled by criminal groups, especially on the tube. If anyone in genuine need turns up to beg on any of the stations, he/she quickly ousted by the "krysha". So giving money to them is akin to contribution to the thieves' "obschak".

Kshisya, crying "I don't want to hear it, shut up, shut up, shut up!" does not alleviate the problem. It simply shoves it to the back of the closet. However, it does not mean to say that nothing can be done.

For some time now, our site in UK (www.bratok.co.uk) contributes to the fund called Murzik. Well, it is not strictly a fund, it is a project, organised by one person, a surgeon by the name of German Pyatov. He simply started buying stuff with his own money and take it out to the orphanages outside Moscow. Then his friends started joining him. Then many more people: lawyers, bankers, businessmen, journalists, etc. gave their time, money and compassion to those kids. They simply gather what they can, load it into their flashy cars and drive them to the orphanage with German. There are no intermediaries, no staff, no unexplained disappearances of money. All goes straight to kids, moderators from our site had a chance to evidence it. Otherwise that $1K collected at our last raffle would not have gone there.

Read this: http://www.murzik.ru/russian/index.php?langs=1&secti=24&aid=

and this (Article ): http://soros.novgorod.ru/index.php?chap=news&sub=2003/2003_02_18.htm

It's quite simple. You go to www.murzik.ru and everything is explained there. English version is not ready yet, so Russian will have to do for now.

Believe me, it works.

Shaun
15-07-2004, 17:19
Okay I kinda didnt get the point of this thread?One of those useless and that goes-to-no-where discussion.


says the girl whose post below, with 112 replies is...

'i think i am kinda falling for one guy' or something.


i dont think this is a useless thread at all. i for one am very interested - lots of people have told me about these 'begging circles' and i am never sure whether to believe it - a lot of people spout the same nonsense in london - 'they make more money than i do and i do an honest job', etc etc - it seems here there may be some truth to the rumours.

however as far as i am concerned begging is such a loss of dignity that anyone who is prepared to do it must be in pretty dire straits. especially in moscow. and if theyre not genuine, and at the end of the day you've lost 20, 50, 100 roubles or whatever, so what.

Kshisya
15-07-2004, 17:42
Originally posted by Filimon


Kshisya, crying "I don't want to hear it, shut up, shut up, shut up!" does not alleviate the problem. It simply shoves it to the back of the closet. However, it does not mean to say that nothing can be done.



:rolleyes: listen i just find embarrassing reading: I gave 10 rbl away "dot". ( with "I got heart" between the lines" ) As for your referring to funds and organizations there is no doubt that some of them are useful BUT if you noticed that wasn't the topic of thread to put it into contrudiction with what i said ~grin~ The start of it was more bout "personal attitude and feelings"

Shaun you just shut ya f up :D (you....hell knows who :p)you dont make any sence at all :p And YES some ppl find my falling in love or not a very exciting reading and besides they are really concerned if I do or not :p



The personal responsiblity in this case actually is very subjective. I am really glad that with my previous company it was me who succeded to make the management approve a charity project that everybody was rejecting for months. Finally the company participated with feeding begger children and homeless at the Paveletsky railway square. Everyday tens of ppl could have a free lunch, simple but good. So if nothing more could be done at least that children had an opportunity to eat at least once during the day or get some extra feeding which for sure was better than whatever they received from their "parents" or got by themselves.


As for what I personally do or feel for begger kids - it's nobody's business :p not going to tell bout it like other ppl in herel, can do in person in Karma on Firday tho :D

Shaun
15-07-2004, 18:28
kshisya

i understand what you mean.

but at the end of the day that's what a lot of charities work on... and that streak is in a lot of people - i mean, the people in london where you give 2 pounds and get a sticker, which basically says 'look at me, arent i wonderful, i give to charity'.

and im sorry i dont make any sense to you:p i just thought this thread was at least AS interesting as 'who is the sexiest person on expat', 'do you prefer apples or bananas', etc etc etc. controversial, i know

;)

Ned Kelly
15-07-2004, 18:40
kshisya, boquets as always....

anyway, peng, you're basically asking what you should do.....i'm always a sucker for when kids call me "weird dyadya ned"...

anyway, i sort of go by the following:

- if a drunk comes up to me and says straight out he desperately needs money for alcohol...ned always respects honesty...

- i give to babushki if they remind me of my ba...silly but true...

- with kids i give food...whether it's fruit or we go to a stall and get something....a few vitamins don;t hurt anyone...

pengwn9
15-07-2004, 19:27
Actually Ned, that's a pretty good idea to give them food. I wouldn't have thought of it. Didn't have any with me at the time.

But in retrospect I'm sorry now that I didn't give him anything. People have told me so many times not to give in to gypsy beggars--that if you do, there will be a dozen more popping out of the bushes to pick your pockets--that I went against my gut feeling that this was a kid who needed a handup. I should know better. :shame:

jules
15-07-2004, 20:01
So I heard this story about how when Christ was being put on the cross, the soldiers were furious to find that a gypsy had stolen one of the nails - the one they planned to drive through Christ's heart. God was so grateful to the gypsy for this that he gave all gypsies permission to steal whatever they need to live. As a result, gypsies don't think about "possessions" - as far as they're concerned, everything belongs to everyone, and if they need it, they'll take it. It's such an unusual philosophy for our materialistic minds... :)

Anyway, something else I heard of is how sometimes gypsies will sell their children or horses - but that at the first opportunity, the child or horse will secretly return to the gypsy. How's that for buyer beware? ;)

So many legends about this people, and so little understanding. They have a bad reputation, but I've heard other opinions, about how they love their children and live communally, everyone sharing their experience and teaching the next generation... It's a different society, we're just not privy to their traditions.

Gypsy or not, I'm wary of giving handouts on the street, but help a charity for street kids.... I hope it makes a difference.

tbill
15-07-2004, 21:12
Jules, Let me get this straight. Gypsy steals nail that would have gone through Jesus' heart. Thus, Jesus has to hang from a cross for hours in utter agony instead of having a quick death. Then Dad awards the gypsy's with a cosmic get out of jail free card. If I was Jesus, I'd be f*^&ing pissed.

am4rw
15-07-2004, 22:10
There are a lot of charities in Moscow, and more orphanages than I care to think about. Many of the orphanages are extremely poor operations living hand-to-mouth. Many of the street kids (estimated at more than 1 million in Russia) are out on the street because their homes are broken due to alcohol or their parents dead from it.

Why give money to a kid who's begging for an adult? So they can buy more vodka and create another orphan? Seems to be self-defeating. Find people who are truly interested in feeding, educating, and helping some kids, and direct your charitable impulses in that direction.

Scam artists, and I include beggars in that, prey on your guilt.

Moscow Wolf
15-07-2004, 22:52
Originally posted by Kshisya
PS i gave up stalking you :cry: your heart is made of steel! :p

Nah its made of full fat butter, you just didn't find the way to melt it - yet. Anyway you fell in love with Darth Vader so I read! ;)

Moscow Wolf
15-07-2004, 22:56
Originally posted by Ghost
I'm also noticing the "growly" term being used rather often lately. I expect royalties.

I was 'Growling' when you was still in short pants, forget the Royalties! :p

Dino
15-07-2004, 23:35
I too feel sorry for these children and have heard the stories about why you shouldn't give money. I will give them a piece of fruit instead.
I feel I do my bit by helping out at a Detsky Dom coaching kids in sport. If anyone is interested in helping out please PM me for details.
Thanks
Dino

Moscow Wolf
16-07-2004, 01:32
Dino, not wishing to waste your valuable time, but what kids exactly, Gypsy kids or orphans or what? My interest is genuine, at my age maybe its time to give something back that is not purely money orientated. You might get a few more interested than you could imagine.

agent_alice
16-07-2004, 03:02
i would not. i think they send there kids out to beg and than take all of their money, or it's an attempt to make you show them your wallet. One time my mom went to a rynok and a whole sworm of them got around her and tried to take her purse. She grabbed one of them so she could drag him to the policy, but the rest started panicking and running away, so she let go.
Their parents need to get JOBS

Kshisya
16-07-2004, 11:02
Originally posted by Moscow Wolf
Nah its made of full fat butter, you just didn't find the way to melt it - yet. Anyway you fell in love with Darth Vader so I read! ;)

ah ! :rolleyes: if it was of full fat butter I'd already fry pancakes on it! :p And where have you read that I FELL ;) I might be falling :suspect: however am not sure ...yet ;)...:rolleyes: soOO could consider falling in some other direction! :p:p:p

lyndsay
16-07-2004, 11:13
no to just see the kids in such appalling conditions, but to see the parents and to have to check myself and think - how much is my sense of self worth?

I give money to all of them to fel better about myself.. maybe that's the point of giving anything these days... I can't estimate poverty in a way I see here..

It seems we are inconvenienced when we face it.. dehumanise them - no idea or clue of their reality... justify ourselves by criminalising them as bandits..


Does it actually matter to you how they came to be? How artfully they seduce your emotions of guilt?

You give what you have... try not to put a value on poverty as there is none but pain and despair.

uninformed
18-07-2004, 12:39
Originally posted by Random
I am a sucker for the old ladies with icons ...always spare a rouble or 10 for them ...figure that way somebody is praying for me !! Hmmm....I NEVER give it to those who use their religion for profit. Seems like manipulation. I'd rather give it to a musician who is at least doing something for their money.

gadfly
18-07-2004, 18:34
I hate gypsies. According to family legend, my great-grandmother Anna Kuskievich was mortally afraid of gypsies. In the twilight years of her life, she would often see the hippies of the late 1960's and cower from them, thinking that they were gypsies bent on stealing her livestock. The United States is lucky not to have experienced a gypsy infestation. Gypsies in Slovakia regularly inbreed and refuse to live in modern housing. There were instances during soviet times when they were provided with free housing by the government, and responded by tearing out windows, walls and fixtures so that they might dwell in the savage way that they prefer. Gypsies should be dealt with in the way that American Indians were dealt with: they should be put on reservations and provided with grain alcohol. Eventually they will dwindle away, reduced to selling cheap trinkets by the highway.

I find it odd that you make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I don't particularly miss them; someone had to tell me that they didn't exist here before I noticed it. I'd like to find one woman whom nature has spared these trite sympathies for those that fortune has abandoned. If you're going to give to charity, why not treat a poor grad student to a steak dinner?

Braders
18-07-2004, 19:00
I too know that these beggars are designated areas where they can beg and give money to the local hoods, so i don't give as much as i use to, these angelic little buggers will whip ya wallet off ya given half a chance, they may well look like sweet 7 year old kids but unfortunately they are already more than likely destined for a life of crime and you're the victim, loose change in the pocket sure, getting my wallet out no f'in chance.

I am more than likely going to give money to solders of misfortune who have lost their limbs and sure as shit aint getting any help from the Government.

I get the feeling they don't contribute to the local 'Roof'?

pengwn9
18-07-2004, 21:11
Originally posted by gadfly
I hate gypsies. According to family legend, my great-grandmother Anna Kuskievich was mortally afraid of gypsies. In the twilight years of her life, she would often see the hippies of the late 1960's and cower from them, thinking that they were gypsies bent on stealing her livestock. The United States is lucky not to have experienced a gypsy infestation. Gypsies in Slovakia regularly inbreed and refuse to live in modern housing. There were instances during soviet times when they were provided with free housing by the government, and responded by tearing out windows, walls and fixtures so that they might dwell in the savage way that they prefer. Gypsies should be dealt with in the way that American Indians were dealt with: they should be put on reservations and provided with grain alcohol. Eventually they will dwindle away, reduced to selling cheap trinkets by the highway.

I find it odd that you make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. I don't particularly miss them; someone had to tell me that they didn't exist here before I noticed it. I'd like to find one woman whom nature has spared these trite sympathies for those that fortune has abandoned. If you're going to give to charity, why not treat a poor grad student to a steak dinner?

Gadfly, your prejudices are alarming. Your whole tirade sounds just like the dirty discrimination I've heard in America about the~ blacks "lazy welfare scammers"~ Mexicans "Spanish speaking slackers"~Asians "sneaky gooks stealing our jobs"~and before that there were the Italians, the Jews (mostly Russian), and a long list of other indolent untrustworthy immigrants who bore the wrath of cultural prejudice. You beat up people of color in the Metro too?

What kind of Grad School is this you attend? Sounds frightening.
But thanks for sharing. :yikes:

agent_alice
19-07-2004, 00:16
what's wrong with Indians? The americans took THEIR land

Blaked
19-07-2004, 10:03
We're not talking about a race here - we're talking about a community. There are plenty of people who are ethnically gypsy (Roma?) that have joined civil society. If you wanted to draw an allusion to the US, a difference can be seen between 'blacks' and the gang culture of the ghetto. (a la Chris Rock)

I had a friend that went on a class trip to Rome back in the early 90's when he was still in High School, and the bus driver told everyone "don't let the gypsies corner you and tell you stories, etc. because they only want to rob you." The class exited the bus and there were gypsies trying to talk to them etc, and my friend's buddy had this gypsy kid come up to him. The buddy put a foot on the kid's chest and floored him - the whole bus laughed. If one of these little buggers ever puts his hand on my phone or wallet, I's gonna chop off his itty bitty fingers and make gumbo, yo.

Americans took the Indians land and I'm glad we did it - America wouldn't have been nearly as wealthy if we'd just intermarried with them or something - I mean, one only needs to look at the demographics of countries where colonists tried to peacefully co-exist, inter-marry or set up an administrative state. The most successful South American states are ones where the incoming Spanish vastly outnumbered the native populations, like Argentina or Chile or Costa Rica. Still, neither were nearly as successful as the US and Canada, where they were annihilated.



Originally posted by pengwn9
Gadfly, your prejudices are alarming. Your whole tirade sounds just like the dirty discrimination I've heard in America about the~ blacks "lazy welfare scammers"~ Mexicans "Spanish speaking slackers"~Asians "sneaky gooks stealing our jobs"~and before that there were the Italians, the Jews (mostly Russian), and a long list of other indolent untrustworthy immigrants who bore the wrath of cultural prejudice. You beat up people of color in the Metro too?

What kind of Grad School is this you attend? Sounds frightening.
But thanks for sharing. :yikes:

J.D.
19-07-2004, 10:25
Well it's not entertaing. Maybe it is suppose to be irony/sarcassm.

I will often be sarcastic to make a point.
Is this what I look like when I do it?

Ghost
19-07-2004, 10:31
I ignored this thread and came back a week later, only to find the level of hatred higher, intollerance rampant, and racial bigotry abound.

I should have just stayed the hell away, but now my stomach is sick.

Fa-Q!
19-07-2004, 10:43
I hate gypsies
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did you catch your mother in a threesome with some gypsies or something? Oh, and you're the bastard offspring, I get it! I hate (insert the people of your choice). Let me tell you something you ********. If you want to come on this site and say you hate gypsies, women, whatever, you at least take out of your profile that you're an american. otherwise, might just fall vicitim to Americans abroad street justice. Oh and, **** my ****. It's American.

Ghost
19-07-2004, 10:52
Now I feel a little better :)

Schelckunchick
19-07-2004, 11:20
Originally posted by Ghost
Now I feel a little better :)
Me too. Especially after reading the lively, civil discourse,accompanied by blatant spelling mistakes and genteel ebonic renderings.

Kadett
19-07-2004, 11:24
Is it me or has the quality on this forum deteriorated?

Schelckunchick
19-07-2004, 11:31
It has acquired an American degradation.

Ghost
19-07-2004, 11:34
Sure, let's blame the U.S. now. Everyone else does.

Schelckunchick
19-07-2004, 11:43
Originally posted by Fa-Q!
I hate gypsies
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did you catch your mother in a threesome with some gypsies or something? Oh, and you're the bastard offspring, I get it! I hate (insert the people of your choice). Let me tell you something you cocksucker. If you want to come on this site and say you hate gypsies, women, whatever, you at least take out of your profile that you're an american. otherwise, might just fall vicitim to Americans abroad street justice. Oh and, suck my dick. It's American.
What more proof is necessary?

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2004, 11:47
Originally posted by Fa-Q!
I hate gypsies
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Did you catch your mother in a threesome with some gypsies or something? Oh, and you're the bastard offspring, I get it! I hate (insert the people of your choice). Let me tell you something you ********. If you want to come on this site and say you hate gypsies, women, whatever, you at least take out of your profile that you're an american. otherwise, might just fall vicitim to Americans abroad street justice. Oh and, **** my ****. It's American.

Despite the fact that I hate ya Fa-Q, total respect my man.

Sometimes I just want to meet the kind of people who write stuff like that here, are they uneducated, mentally challenged, or what? I hope there is some explanation for a-holes like this.

Note to moderators: Too much of this kind of thing happening. Suggest mass expat.ru meeting, point the mofos out and I will tear their lungs out with my bare hands.

Ghost
19-07-2004, 11:52
Originally posted by Schelckunchick
What more proof is necessary?

First of all, what he wrote was - although vulgar - needed to be said. He's not condoning racism, bigotry, etc. He's calling out the twit who is condoning it.

Second, even if you don't like what he said, how about you not judging a nation by the actions of a particular person? You're no better than those saying crap about a particular race of people.

Hint: Hate the person if you must, but don't hate the people. Better off, don't hate at all!

Schelckunchick
19-07-2004, 11:52
That's bold talk for a one eyed fat man!!!

gadfly
19-07-2004, 12:04
Let's first establish that we are talking about gypsies that beg, and not gypsies that are doctors, lawyers, engineers, teachers, etc (never met them.) If any group of people - let's take the goths on Chisty Prudy. If the goths on chisty prudy begged for cash (some do when they play annoying music, but let's say they all begged for cash) and pick-pocketed people, I'd hate them too. Why? Because I don't want to get robbed! It's that simple. Gypsies are largely an elective community, like goths or gays. People with Roma ancestry aren't necessarily dirty street urchins and most are loathe to be associated with them. If my parents were gypsies and wore dirty gypsy rags, I wouldn't speak to them.

When I see a gypsy on the street, I don't think "well, this guy, he dresses and looks like a gypsy, but he might be a principal for Renaissance capital, or maybe some particle physicist" the way I do when I see Muslim looking people that most Muscovites would just as soon spit on. Noooo, I think, "My friends Michelle and Robert were robbed three times each by such people - they are criminals and I should stay away from them."

BTW - FA-Q reminds me of punks that are members of Anti-Racist Action in Pittsburgh - another group of people that plays annoying music and begs for cash.

Fa-Q!
19-07-2004, 12:14
Blow it out your **** turd-burlgar!

Zephyr
19-07-2004, 12:17
If somebody carjacks me in Detroit I will cap they're ass the same as a gypsy in a New York minute.

gadfly
19-07-2004, 12:21
Hells yeah!

Ghost
19-07-2004, 12:29
Originally posted by Schelckunchick
That's bold talk for a one eyed fat man!!!

I'm neither fat, nor one-eyed - as many here who have met me will attest to. Try less anger in your life. It worked for me.

gadfly
19-07-2004, 12:30
Agreed - less anger. Let's just be thankful that the government doesn't waste our money feeding, clothing and housing these people the way that it would in the States!

Ghost
19-07-2004, 12:36
Or perhaps if it did, there might be less? I don't know. Do I still see beggars and bums on the streets of New York? Yep. But I don't give them a red cent because I know that they've got some place they can go for help - Soup kitchens, homeless shelters, etc. I've already given a tax dollar to help them, which makes me less likely to want to give them a dollar from my wallet.

And as long as I've lived in NY, I've never seen kids trying to bum money off me.

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2004, 12:38
Originally posted by gadfly
Agreed - less anger. Let's just be thankful that the government doesn't waste our money feeding, clothing and housing these people the way that it would in the States!

Our money?

How many of you are paying tax here?

Ghost
19-07-2004, 12:43
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
Our money?

How many of you are paying tax here?

Yet another good point from the DJ.

Zephyr
19-07-2004, 13:04
LOL yes I'm paying now 35% of my money to the government for what !! To stop ossama bin ladin ? To take my constitutional freedoms away ?Russia here I come , unless of course my visa is intercepted by the officials in place in Russia/

Zephyr
19-07-2004, 13:12
A significant number for your posts I might add.

Braders
19-07-2004, 16:36
A thread that started off innocently enough about, do you/would you/have you given money to the beggars who appear during the summer? has turned into another discussion about 'race'

Is it not possible to stick to the topic in hand? all of a sudden we are talking about Native American Indians, Gypsies emmigrating from Slovakia and America again and again and again.

Turns my stomach to see hateful racial comments... they are human beings just like you and I.

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2004, 16:55
Well said.

I am becoming more and more disappointed and disillusioned by the so called 'educated' expats who frequent these boards. How the hell did they end up here? Who would employ such low life scum bags with dirt for brains? They certainly aren't ambassadors for their respective countries, and make the rest of totally ashamed.

Blaked
19-07-2004, 17:03
One of my friends always sees this gypsy in our neighborhood. He always points at her and says "look! It's her!" "I don't trust her!!! - she's evil!!" We met her once while drinking at the cafe. To be honest, I barely remember what she looks like. Kinda like an Italian. She doesn't dress like a street gypsy.

sfjohns67
19-07-2004, 17:04
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
They certainly aren't ambassadors for their respective countries, and make the rest of totally ashamed. Thanks for saying that DJ, and you're right - they do NOT represent the whole of their countries. I just hope like hell you aren't the only one who doesn't categorize me and a few others around here based on these racist assholes' example.

DJ Biscuit
19-07-2004, 17:11
I am sure the rest of the expat community who read these bigots' posts did not think it was because they are American or something, that would make us similar to them in some ways.

In fact I would risk going as far to say that I do not put them in the same class of animal as the rest of us. And I am sure no one wants to be classed as being their countrymen.

Zephyr
20-07-2004, 01:12
Boobus Americanus a species brought to our attention by H.L. Mencken has long been torn between two competing sentiments: the first, born of self-righteousness, demands the punishment of wrongdoers, with the penalty having less to do with the wrong than with the need to relieve some deeper, unrequited sense of anger. This need for punitive reaction becomes most troubling when a wrong is perpetrated not upon the physical being of Boobus, but upon a collective identity he shares.

sfjohns67
20-07-2004, 08:40
Zephyr, as usual, you shouldn't be posting right before bedtime. Try completing your thought when you wake up, please?

Zephyr
20-07-2004, 09:20
SF john, I thought sure you of all people could make that leap. The virulent attacks on a persons opinions seem to take on a violent mob like PC self rightiousness that seems to me to go beyond the original imagined offence. This seems to me to be even more negative and venomous than anything that was the stated provocation for the retalliation. It seems the typical use of a 44 to swat at a fly, is ok as long as it approved by the mob values of percieved PC opinion, and cheered on by the correctly indoctrinated masses.
please excuse yet another half conscious rant.

, -!

Sadie
20-07-2004, 10:10
I can understand when you give money to someone in the street babushka, dedushka, a cripple - I realize they ARE in need. But gypsies... You guys should have seen their houses in the Moscow region, damn, these are palaces, Ive been to one of these. I am very sceptical bout giving them money. It is dangerous, whatever you say. They send these kids foward, and in the meanwhile steal your wallets and stuff. Taking such a kid home?? Are you naive or what? At the age of 5-6 they are already professionals: professional beggars and professional thieves.

The other point not to give them money is the fact that doing this, you simply support them. It wont ever stop, if we continue feeding parasites (I am sorry if it sounds offensive or anything, but literally they are). Guest 777 is right, they earn very well, theres a good movie Nebesa Obetovannye bout that. Though, Guest, I think they earn much more than $100 per day, as not only they feel themselves very well, but also feed militia that closes its eyes at all this. And, for Gods sake, it's a crime to involve a kid into alms gathering. Whom on Earth do you support????

sfjohns67
20-07-2004, 11:04
Originally posted by Zephyr
SF john, I thought sure you of all people could make that leap. The virulent attacks on a persons opinions seem to take on a violent mob like PC self rightiousness that seems to me to go beyond the original imagined offence. This seems to me to be even more negative and venomous than anything that was the stated provocation for the retalliation. It seems the typical use of a 44 to swat at a fly, is ok as long as it approved by the mob values of percieved PC opinion, and cheered on by the correctly indoctrinated masses.
please excuse yet another half conscious rant.
I'll give you that PC opinion lends itself to self righteousness and a silencing of true opinions, but that's all the ground I'll give, because I really hate racists and racism and there is nothing PC about the fact that I don't want to hear their poisonous shit! Period. Maybe now and for the next 2-3 generations acceptance is/will be a stance based on political correctness, but I believe (and moreover HOPE) that what is now PC will someday be a true tolerance of cultural/racial differences.

As a southerner (like yourself), I fought VERY hard to keep myself from subscribing to the bigoted opinions of my parents, grandparents, and just about every other white person I grew up around, and I'm proud to say I am not the least bit racist. As a matter of fact, I find it much easier to just hate everybody on equal terms and consider them all assholes until they prove differently. The level of accuracy in such an approach is pretty astounding.

Ned Kelly
20-07-2004, 11:06
Originally posted by sfjohns67
I find it much easier to just hate everybody on equal terms and consider them all assholes until they prove differently.

hear, hear!

Fa-Q!
20-07-2004, 11:08
Preach it SFJ-Buck!:thumbsup:

Sidney Bliss
20-07-2004, 11:11
Originally posted by sfjohns67
As a matter of fact, I find it much easier to just hate everybody on equal terms and consider them all assholes until they prove differently. The level of accuracy in such an approach is pretty astounding.

And you've all proved yourselves to be astounding assholes. The Milky Bars are on Sid.

sfjohns67
20-07-2004, 11:13
Sid, you just get on back to your road trip on the ol Hershey Highway and leave the complex sentences to us.

What's a Milky Bar?

Shaun
20-07-2004, 11:14
gypsies earn well over $100 a day and live in palaces?

have they started publishing the Daily Mail in russia or something?

please, sadie, provide some evidence or articles or something about this. i am exceptionally sceptical.

as far as i was aware they scrape by on the little they manage to steal and live in slums on the edge of the city.

Ned Kelly
20-07-2004, 11:16
Originally posted by Sidney Bliss
And you've all proved yourselves to be astounding assholes. The Milky Bars are on Sid.

i haven't had a milky bar for 10 years. i'm happy to be called an asshole for one.

Sidney Bliss
20-07-2004, 11:20
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i haven't had a milky bar for 10 years. i'm happy to be called an asshole for one.

I've heard you're happy to sell your asshole for one!

Ned Kelly
20-07-2004, 11:21
don't go confusing your fantasies with reality. you didn;t get anywhere with those mcnuggets either.

Zephyr
20-07-2004, 11:31
Originally posted by Sidney Bliss
I've heard you're happy to sell your asshole for one!
Oy Ned will you take THAT lying down ? :_)))))

Ned Kelly
20-07-2004, 11:32
Originally posted by Zephyr
Oy Ned will you take THAT lying down ? :_)))))

if i was amenable to his proposition i suppose i would.

Zephyr
20-07-2004, 11:36
You shameless Hussy :-)

Ned Kelly
20-07-2004, 11:37
Originally posted by Zephyr
You shameless Hussy :-)

careful, i'm not immune to flattery.

J.D.
20-07-2004, 11:44
I for one would like to know how much beggars really earn. More than once I've glanced into a good sized bag hanging on the back of a wheel chair being pushed through a metro car and the damn thing will have about 3 liters of coin and bills in it. i've tried to calculate the value but the margin of error is tremendous (100 to 1 just on 1 kopec to 1 ruble)

But one can easily see that $100 a day is 5 rubles a minute based on a 10 hour a work day and I can't imagine that for most of the beggars standing on the street.

Sadie
20-07-2004, 11:49
Shaun, I hardly can provide you with any evidences the way you understand that. As well as I dont consider any articles to be serious evidences, okay? But its a well known fact. I dont say they live in palaces literally, but I did have a chance to visit one of their houses, and was astonished indeed, I never expected that. Regular gypsies, gadalka, blin (fortune-teller). It was a 3 storey huge house, in my understandidng bout 300 sq.meters. Brand new. How do you imagine they live? In slums chto-li???? No way. The gypsy community is quite strong here. Again, I went to friends dacha, and was shown a part of the village, where gypsies had bought the piece of land and were building their houses. It was impressive. I would have taken pics if knew I would ever need to prove the obvious.

As for earning, Shaun, try to count yourself. Ppl give them 10-20 RURs each minimum (JD, I won't argue your 5 rubles, it's senseless), so it doesnt take to long to get $100 or so in my opinion.
I am not into this issue, as well as its NOT a hot burning prob here, so I doubt there are any articles on that. Tho there was a time (well, maybe 6-8 years ago), when all these gypsies & beggars were a real pain in the **** so it all was discussed on TV etc.

You can believe me or not, it doesnt matter. If you like the idea of investing into their prosperity, go ahead, u r free to do that.

Anton S.
20-07-2004, 12:39
As far as I understand, most women begging with small children are not their mothers - sometimes they simply buy a baby from some alcoholic, drug the baby, so that it would be quiet and use it as a money-raising device. Such people often operate in gangs. With bigger children they do not use drugs, but simply intimidate them and take away all their earnings and give them a place to sleep for the night and some food. In fact, such children are slaves of such criminals. The militia usually get some money from the gang and turn a blind eye to their activities. Some gangs also use cripples or frail old people also like slaves.

Some homeless people also use their own children in the same way - quite ruthlessly. I was involved in helping a charming girl of nine who lived with her homeless alcoholic mother and the mother forced the girl to beg in any weather, no matter how the child felt, to beg near a church and then took all the money and spent it mostly on booze. Thank God, this child was taken away from her monster of a mother and lives in a family type orphanage where she is developing quite normally and is loved by everyone.

So, I never give any money to women (or men) with children.

Except for Gypsies. Gypsies usually beg with their own children and seem to treat these children much better. Of course, some of them may be quite rich, but others, especially newcomers from Central Asia, seem rather poor. Anyway, they have no education, they simply do not know how to work, so the only way to survive for them is either to beg, or to steal, or to push drugs (there are some old-fashioned Gypsy ladies who also do fortune-telling). So, it is much better if they beg than if they steal or sell crack.

For this reason, I give money to Gypsies, but not to white beggars with children. Of course, one can give a banana or something of the kind to a child.

And if you really want to help children, find a reliable, transparent NGO and help through it. Or, which is more difficult, but more efficient, try to adopt a child.

The authorities in Russia, unfortunately, do not care two hoots about the country's children.

Journalists can help by calling public attention to the plight of orphans and other underprivileged children in the country and in supporting those people who do something to help them. Such people encounter very big obstacles.

Shaun
20-07-2004, 12:45
minimum of 10-20 roubles a time? perhaps for the most sad looking war veterans or babushki - but i can honestly say i have never seen anyone give money to gypsies. $100 a day is simply laughable.

Obviously a lot of roma steal and its really annoying and unpleasant. but in a community which finds it impossible to get legal recognition and is treated like shit, this is perhaps unsurprising, and it is a chicken and egg situation - are they stealing because of their problems, or are their problems because of their stealing? the position that most roma are in in terms of legal recognition and opportunities in many cases offer them little choice.

and as for this living in palaces nonsense - this is the typical sort of racist bullshit that we hear all the time about minorities - the bangladeshis or refugees, that are allegedly making a fortune from the social services in england, etc etc... it makes me sick.

perhaps you did see a big house owned by gypsies. there are also palaces owned by representatives of central asian mafia groups in moscow, i wouldnt think that from this we could deduce that all central asians in moscow live in luxury.

you only have to look at these people (roma) to see that the majority are living in poverty and misery.


If you can be bothered perhaps look at this:

http://lists.errc.org/rr_nr3_2003/noteb4.shtml

or at this below from St. P times.

http://www.sptimesrussia.com/archive/times/858/news/n_9153.htm

Ghost
20-07-2004, 13:17
Originally posted by Anton S.
As far as I understand, most women begging with small children are not their mothers - sometimes they simply buy a baby from some alcoholic, drug the baby, so that it would be quiet and use it as a money-raising device. Such people often operate in gangs. With bigger children they do not use drugs, but simply intimidate them and...

Which brings us back once more to "the children are the victims". Very insightful post, Anton. Thanks :)

Sadie
20-07-2004, 14:17
Shaun, hon, you are free to believe in whatever nonsense you wish.
And like I said it wasn't A house. Whatever, it 's not my today's main or whatever goal to convince you. But if you don't make any difference between the Romani people and the others, well.. Like I said it's a strong community here. I can understand, you guys sometimes feel very excited about bringing up the problems of national minorities and stuff, but I don't regard gypsies as victims anyway.

Legal recognition? Treat like shit? Hilarious. Who the f cares what nationality you represent here??? Or are you saying we should support the minority just because of the fact that they (mind you am NOT speaking bout all Romani ppl) are used to lead a parasitical style of life? And what you mean in particular? I am done with the discussion.

Help poor gypsies! Really, Shaun, I have nothing agains that and you, way to go! Unlike you I even won't call your post BS, which doesn't mean you are right though.

sfjohns67
20-07-2004, 14:37
Okay, so here's my do-gooder story. There is a group of about 4-5 little boys, age approximately 9-11, who hang out near the cafe in Kuskovo Park where my wife and I go frequently. The boldest of them regularly comes up to people and asks if he can have some of their food, and he's hit us up a couple of times. He's never aggressive or rude about it, and in fact is actually quite polite and even looks you in the eye when he's begging. If I see any of the kids in the vicinity when we get to the cafe, I make it a point to buy an extra portion of shashlik and seek the kid out to give it to him.

I don't think I'm going to save the world; I don't even think I'm going to save this kid, and I'm sure as hell not patting myself on the back about it. What I AM doing is feeding one (not sure if he shares with the others) hungry kid for one night, which for that one night and maybe a few afterward keeps my sappy ass from crying at the heartbreaking thought of a kid who didn't ask to be brought into the world and abandoned. I don't give a shit if he's a gypsy, a Caucasian, a drunkard's offspring, or even if he's lying his little ass off for a free meal (if so, he's a good actor in the Robert DeNiro method acting sense of starving oneself for a role, believe me), or whatever, he's a hungry, innocent kid to me.

jules
20-07-2004, 17:50
Originally posted by tbill
Jules, Let me get this straight. Gypsy steals nail that would have gone through Jesus' heart. Thus, Jesus has to hang from a cross for hours in utter agony instead of having a quick death. Then Dad awards the gypsy's with a cosmic get out of jail free card. If I was Jesus, I'd be f*^&ing pissed.

I know - I think the same thing :agree: but if you're looking for logic in christianity, you'll be looking a long time.... ;) :D

Re: the "palace" that the gypsies were living in - I think it's more than likely that they found an empty place and just moved in while the owners were away. I doubt that they would bother building a place, installing electricity, etc... they generally like to be free to go where they will, not tied down to property. Some do settle down, though, but not often. Usually they just "squat" for a while until they're run off....

sir Gay
20-07-2004, 22:25
Originally posted by Guest777

Don't worry too much about those children. They make about $100 per day by begging...

how come you know beggars daily pay????:)

sir Gay
20-07-2004, 22:32
Originally posted by Sadie

As for earning, Shaun, try to count yourself. Ppl give them 10-20 RURs each minimum (JD, I won't argue your 5 rubles, it's senseless), so it doesnt take to long to get $100 or so in my opinion. If you like the idea of investing into their prosperity, go ahead, u r free to do that.

even if some beggars fool you how one differs a fake pauper from a real one? isn't it better to be fooled by 9 fakes and yet help ONE really needy person?

Sadie
21-07-2004, 09:02
Originally posted by sir Gay
isn't it better to be fooled by 9 fakes and yet help ONE really needy person?

no

as you don't HAVE to be fooled first IN ORDER to help 1,2,3 in need, that's the point

Kshisya
21-07-2004, 11:01
Originally posted by Sadie
no

as you don't HAVE to be fooled first IN ORDER to help 1,2,3 in need, that's the point

killer! :thumbsup:

Anton S.
21-07-2004, 13:51
Of course, it's better to help a fake beggar than not help a real one.

The trouble is that the small change we give to begging children will not make big difference. It will help them survive, but it will not give them an opportunity to go to school, to have medical treatment, to get adapted to a normal way of life.

That's why if you really want to help, it is better to find an organisation which does some real work, a poor but decent family which tries to give their children a good upbringing or a family-type orphanage with good foster parents, etc., and help them.

All such people and institutions have a hard life in Russia, often they suffer from real persecution by the authorities, they do need support - financial and moral.

Blaked
21-07-2004, 14:16
I'm glad that a few people on here understand that we're not insulting a race, but a way of life that is predicated on theft. Racially, the gypsies are 'Aryan' in the truest sense of the word - making them racially similar to Farsi in Iran, the Brahmin (elite) caste in India, the Tajiks, and the Ossetians. In other words, their features, etc. resemble a group of people that varies markedly from country to country.

Something else that I've found rather amusing is that these anti-defamation crusaders are ready to call us out because we're 'American,' imploring others not to consider our opinions to be popular among Americans, when most of the posters that share my disdain for gypsy beggars are Russians.

Most Americans don't know much about gypsies unless they have been turned on to gypsy music by Bartok and the like. Racism against blacks, hispanics, etc is usually the result of attention that is drawn to the actions of a small percentage of poor, urban blacks/hispanics that commit crimes. It is generally understood that the actions of these people are a function of their poverty rather than their race.

If I talk about the 'black community,' the term provokes a lot of images, many of them positive. It also can't be said that the black community promotes vices thought common of blacks by those who hold racial prejudices. I don't think these can be said of the gypsy community. If I had gypsy ancestry, I'd do my best to join the rest of society. On principle, I never help beggars, although I have been known to give change to people that play good music.


Gypsy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Gypsy3v2.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Gypsy3v2.jpg/120px-Gypsy3v2.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/4/47/Gypsy3v2.jpg/120px-Gypsy3v2.jpg


Originally posted by Sadie
Shaun, I hardly can provide you with any evidences the way you understand that. As well as I dont consider any articles to be serious evidences, okay? But its a well known fact. I dont say they live in palaces literally, but I did have a chance to visit one of their houses, and was astonished indeed, I never expected that. Regular gypsies, gadalka, blin (fortune-teller). It was a 3 storey huge house, in my understandidng bout 300 sq.meters. Brand new. How do you imagine they live? In slums chto-li???? No way. The gypsy community is quite strong here. Again, I went to friends dacha, and was shown a part of the village, where gypsies had bought the piece of land and were building their houses. It was impressive. I would have taken pics if knew I would ever need to prove the obvious.

gadfly
21-07-2004, 15:49
Why help random people? Has everyone here watched too many Christmas specials?