PDA

View Full Version : Holiday in Canada



Lucia
06-07-2004, 12:38
My friend and I are thinking of going to Canada for a visit this summer -- yes you've guessed it, he wants to emigrate and have a look first. I'm going along for the ride. Can anyone tell me the likelihood of his getting a tourist visa? Also, info on air ticket prices would be much appreciated.

Thanks

legspreader
06-07-2004, 13:39
visa no clue and as for airfair try travelocity or some other online travel agency....

stralex
06-07-2004, 13:43
I would recommend infinity.ru

I wish to emigrate to Canada.

albundy
06-07-2004, 14:03
I live in Canada. I think this country has a lot of positive things about it, but some positive or negative issues will make it difficult for someone from Moscow to adopt the local lifestyle. The pace is different. You will not be able to avoid a major culture shock. I think that of season fare to toronto should be about $1K the most. Someone I know jut got a ticket for $1100 by Lufthansa, and thats during high season. Prices quoted in USD. Drop me a PM if you have a particular question about lifestyle or points of interest here.

jules
06-07-2004, 16:54
Regarding visas, from what I've heard they want to make sure that you have good reasons to come back to Russia and aren't planning to stay in Canada illegally. They just got a new website with lots of good visa info, I think it's www.canadianembassy.ru - there are even downloadable application forms. If you have an apartment and job here, you should be ok.

As far as places to visit, the most beautiful places are Nova Scotia (where I'm from, not that I'm biased or anything ;) ) and British Columbia - ocean, trees, lively nightlife in the main cities... but if your friend is Russian and looking to emigrate, most Russians end up in Toronto. There are pretty active Russian emigre communities in the other main cities, though, particularly Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary and Halifax.

The immigration process can take a while, but at least if you immigrate legally you won't be deported, like some of my Russian friends there were... :(

legspreader
06-07-2004, 18:30
Originally posted by albundy
I live in Canada. I think this country has a lot of positive things about it, but some positive or negative issues will make it difficult for someone from Moscow to adopt the local lifestyle. The pace is different. You will not be able to avoid a major culture shock. I think that of season fare to toronto should be about $1K the most. Someone I know jut got a ticket for $1100 by Lufthansa, and thats during high season. Prices quoted in USD. Drop me a PM if you have a particular question about lifestyle or points of interest here.

$1K ??? should be able to do it for less than that flew to Los Angeles for $750

Canadian1979
08-07-2004, 21:26
Hi, I'm originally from Ottawa. The Russian population there isn't quite as big as Toronto or Montreal, but as I remember it was quite common to overhear Russians just about anywhere, on the bus, at restaurants, etc.
As tourists you'll probably have a hard time at the Canadian embassy if you say anything about your desire to immigrate. Especially if you are young, travelling alone and female. Immigration from Eastern Europe is a sour spot for the Canadian government. It's lead to some nasty reprisal visa restrictions against Canadians in some countries like Estonia or Poland.
That said, the reason for it was that the current Liberal government some time ago made it quite difficult and fairly expensive for prospective immigrants. Obviously the visa application process is complex, by design, to weed out undesirable individuals or economic migrants.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 06:29
First off as an immigrant to Canada myself, I must say don't bother it sucks here. Tourism?? Canada?? nah iot just doesnt compute, unless you want to die of boredom.
For immigration, on the whole unless you want to spend the rest of your life scrubbing toilets or other such shitty jobs because nobody accepts people with a foreign education and experience here. For instance I know doctors from Russia here in Ottawa who are quite literally delivering pizza whilst desperately applying for H1Bs to the US in order to get the f**k out of here. Generally Canadians hate immigrants especially blacks, asians and east europeans, in this west europeans are only slightly less despised.

So do yourself a favour and immigrate somewhere nice in the EU or US!

On the point of your visit though, if the visa officer at all suspects that you intend to immigrate you will be refused. Also most tourist visas for Canada are not given to young people who cannot show substantial ties to Russia, i.e owning property, flat, dacha, car etc! or you have a very good well-paying job in Russia.

6kaway
09-07-2004, 09:18
moron

Canadian1979
09-07-2004, 16:13
WOW ! You are just too bitter! Sorry you've had bad experiences, but it's more likely a result of your own personal failure, not Canada's fault.

Or maybe the fact sales of alcohol are restricted in the province of Ontario....

I know many prosperous and well educated immigrants who made wonderful lives for themselves in Canada. Your little comment about us being racist is a load of crap....! Canadians are FAR more welcoming than Americans or West Europeans.

New immigrants to Canada are treated extrememly well overall. For that reason the Canadian people expect appreciation, because it is our tax dollars that pay for YOU to get on your feet. I take great offence at you saying Canada is a bad place.

Oh and as for your scrubbing toilets all your life...well...job opportunities most often come from personal connections and your own attitudes towards life. You make your own success, it's not handed to you. It seems quite fitting you're stuck cleaning toilets with YOUR SHIT ATTITUDE !!!





Originally posted by Kadett
First off as an immigrant to Canada myself, I must say don't bother it sucks here. Tourism?? Canada?? nah iot just doesnt compute, unless you want to die of boredom.
For immigration, on the whole unless you want to spend the rest of your life scrubbing toilets or other such shitty jobs because nobody accepts people with a foreign education and experience here. For instance I know doctors from Russia here in Ottawa who are quite literally delivering pizza whilst desperately applying for H1Bs to the US in order to get the f**k out of here. Generally Canadians hate immigrants especially blacks, asians and east europeans, in this west europeans are only slightly less despised.

So do yourself a favour and immigrate somewhere nice in the EU or US!

On the point of your visit though, if the visa officer at all suspects that you intend to immigrate you will be refused. Also most tourist visas for Canada are not given to young people who cannot show substantial ties to Russia, i.e owning property, flat, dacha, car etc! or you have a very good well-paying job in Russia.

Filimon
09-07-2004, 17:43
Come on guys, you should know better than heed that loser!

I went to Canada with my Canadian mate whom I met at Uni. We went to Edmonton and Vancouver. I absolutely loved the place, especially BC! I think I want to retire somewhere in Vancouver, buy a nice house somewhere in West Vancouver, a boat and an SUV. :) I will spend 3 months a year in Whistler and drive to California along the coast in summer.

As for aifares, having flown from London direct to Vancouver for 400 pound sterling (around 700 dollars), I doubt that a Lufthansa flight with a mandatory stopover in Frankfurt should be that expensive.

jheisel
09-07-2004, 17:46
Every time I see this subject pop up, I think of the Dead Kennedys song, "Holiday in Cambodia."

Kadett
09-07-2004, 18:54
Originally posted by Canadian1979
WOW ! You are just too bitter! Sorry you've had bad experiences, but it's more likely a result of your own personal failure, not Canada's fault.

Or maybe the fact sales of alcohol are restricted in the province of Ontario....

I know many prosperous and well educated immigrants who made wonderful lives for themselves in Canada. Your little comment about us being racist is a load of crap....! Canadians are FAR more welcoming than Americans or West Europeans.

New immigrants to Canada are treated extrememly well overall. For that reason the Canadian people expect appreciation, because it is our tax dollars that pay for YOU to get on your feet. I take great offence at you saying Canada is a bad place.

Oh and as for your scrubbing toilets all your life...well...job opportunities most often come from personal connections and your own attitudes towards life. You make your own success, it's not handed to you. It seems quite fitting you're stuck cleaning toilets with YOUR SHIT ATTITUDE !!!

Well I see you hold true to the Canadian trait of DELUSION. But hey don't take my word for it I suggest you and any other wanker like you see what other immigrants have to say at

www.settlement.org (http://www.settlement.org/discuss/default.asp)

Oh and BTW I also hold Canadian citizenship so I can say whaterver the **** I want to about Canada.


I know many prosperous and well educated immigrants who made wonderful lives for themselves in Canada

Just like I'm sure you have many black friends right!


because it is our tax dollars that pay for YOU to get on your feet.

You unbelievable asshole, immigrants have to pay extreme amounts of money to come here and usually lose their entire life savings.


job opportunities most often come from personal connections

Well you hit the nail on the head there, its very much the case of good jobs only going to native Canadians, not first generation immo's.

But don't worry though I sure you can sit back and repeat the typical Canadian mantra of 'I live in the best country in the world! ' over and over again to make yourself feel better. The fact that you're in Russia and not in your beloved Ottawa says everything about the reality.

Canadian1979
09-07-2004, 19:30
Originally posted by Kadett
Oh and BTW I also hold Canadian citizenship so I can say whaterver the **** I want to about Canada.

You may have Canadian citizenship, just like hundreds of thousands of others my country has helped, but you will never be Canadian with such dirty and selfish attitudes. You’d fit in better down south I think……too bad they wouldn’t let you in.



Just like I'm sure you have many black friends right!

????? It is terribly ignorant to make such assumptions, friend. As a matter of fact my best friends back in Ottawa are immigrants to Canada or minorities. Cambodian, Vietnamese and YES even Somalian (Black). I’m betting you can’t say the same.



You unbelievable asshole, immigrants have to pay extreme amounts of money to come here and usually lose their entire life savings.

That’s the price you pay, certainly not Canada’s fault that airline tickets cost so much. Once immigrants arrive in Canada they receive access to social funds, housing funds, welfare, free education…..all paid by Canadian tax payers. Not bad if you ask me.



Well you hit the nail on the head there, its very much the case of good jobs only going to native Canadians, not first generation immo's.

Not true at all.

Granted an immigrant needs language skills to land a good job in Canada. If they can speak English and French, any job is open to them. OF COURSE an employer will discriminate if someone shows up looking for a job and can’t communicate at a business level. It’s also the reason tax payers offer new immigrants FREE language classes.

I am 100% Canadian, third generation, and even I had problems finding a good job in Ottawa. It has nothing to do with being Canadian….it’s all about your skills and attitude.

I should also be a little mad because so many immigrant came to Ottawa in the past decade that is has driven wages down. New immigrants are willing to work for less money and as a result you will see that many businesses are staffed largely by first generation workers. A worker arriving from India or south east Asia is happy to earn wages that I as a Canadian find sub-standard.

My European ancestors went through the same thing. When they immigrated they faced hardship at first as well. What do you truly expect? When you arrived in Canada did you expect to be treated like a king and be given a suitcase full of dollars?



But don't worry though I sure you can sit back and repeat the typical Canadian mantra of 'I live in the best country in the world! ' over and over again to make yourself feel better. The fact that you're in Russia and not in your beloved Ottawa says everything about the reality.

No, Canada is certainly not the best. It’s probably the most beautiful, most safe and most comfortable. But our culture isn’t as selfish as many places, so any and all Russians thinking of immigrating based on financial ambitions you will be disappointed. Taxes are high, wages are not the best, good are expensive. Basically if you are like this character Kaddett, looking to “cash-in” it’s not the place for you. But if you are looking for a comfortable life with polite and genuine people, you are welcome!

Kadett
09-07-2004, 19:50
That’s the price you pay, certainly not Canada’s fault that airline tickets cost so much. Once immigrants arrive in Canada they receive access to social funds, housing funds, welfare, free education…..all paid by Canadian tax payers. Not bad if you ask me.

What planet do live on, immigrants are not entitled to any welfare until they have been residents here for a substantial period. In addition social housing is virtually non-existent. Nice quip about the airline tickets you tosser (also fully illustrates your superior attitude to Russians by the way!), thats not what I was referring to as you know perfectly well.


You may have Canadian citizenship, just like hundreds of thousands of others my country has helped, but you will never be Canadian with such dirty and selfish attitudes. You’d fit in better down south I think……too bad they wouldn’t let you in.

Hmmm and what thousands are these that your country has HELPED then. As far as fitting in down south, yeah you're right, at least I can repect them! Oh and BTW contary to your assumptions I'm from Western Europe and believe me when I get home nothing will give me greater satisfaction than relinquishing Canadian citizenship.


A worker arriving from India or south east Asia is happy to earn wages that I as a Canadian find sub-standard.

Said like someone who truly doesn't know what the **** their talking about. If you actually knew any Indians or Asians who work for those sub-standard wages then you know how unhappy they actually are with them.


so any and all Russians thinking of immigrating based on financial ambitions you will be disappointed.

Financial ambition is exactly how CIC encourage mass immigration applications here. Foreign trained doctors are encouraged to come, being told they are in demand, but after arriving find they virtually have to redo medical school on their own expense.


But if you are looking for a comfortable life with polite and genuine people, you are welcome!

Yeah dream on! I suggest you take a long hard look at your country. Though I know from your cultural perspective thats going to be virtually impossible.

Filimon
09-07-2004, 19:58
Originally posted by Kadett
What planet do live on, immigrants are not entitled to any welfare until they have been residents here for a substantial period. In addition social housing is virtually non-existent. Nice quip about the airline tickets you tosser (also fully illustrates your superior attitude to Russians by the way!), thats not what I was referring to as you know perfectly well.



Hmmm and what thousands are these that your country has HELPED then. As far as fitting in down south, yeah you're right, at least I can repect them! Oh and BTW contary to your assumptions I'm from Western Europe and believe me when I get home nothing will give me greater satisfaction than relinquishing Canadian citizenship.



Said like someone who truly doesn't know what the **** their talking about. If you actually knew any Indians or Asians who work for those sub-standard wages then you know how unhappy they actually are with them.



Financial ambition is exactly how CIC encourage mass immigration applications here. Foreign trained doctors are encouraged to come, being told they are in demand, but after arriving find they virtually have to redo medical school on their own expense.



Yeah dream on! I suggest you take a long hard look at your country. Though I know from your cultural perspective thats going to be virtually impossible.

Geez, mate, are you really that much of a jerk, or this is just a result of a massive prolonged hangover?

Let me ask you one thing: is there any country in the world you consider worth living in or your sorry self is going to slag off any and every place no matter what and where it is?

What are you doing on this forum anyway, if you are "from Western Europe"? BTW, noone actually from Western Europe will say he/she is "from Western Europe", they will denote the country they are from.

come on, confess, you are from Melitopol', right? No? Morshansk? Oh, I got it! Shepetovka, "where the waves of the Atlantic Ocean crash on the sandy shores" (c) :)

Chill out! Canada is a no worse place to be than any other developed country.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 20:07
Actually I'm from (as in born and bred) where you're living now tosser. Also unless you've actually immigrated to Canada you don't know what the **** your talking about, enough said.
Canada tries to plug itself as the best country in the world and thats not the case and as I live here I have every right to say so whether you or other wankers like it or not.

Canadian1979
09-07-2004, 20:13
HAHAHAH so you're a London-er? And complaining about Canada ? HAHAHAHA That's rich ! You just lost all credability. I can see why you're angry now. GO back to London, wanker. Canada is too good for you!!!!

Cheers, Filimon ! Thanks for the cover.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 20:23
HAHAHAH so you're a London-er? And complaining about Canada ? HAHAHAHA That's rich ! You just lost all credability. I can see why you're angry now. GO back to London, wanker. Canada is too good for you!!!!

An thus the Canadian attitude to all outsiders is revealed. Go back to hanging from the trees you ignorant piece of shit!

Filimon
09-07-2004, 20:24
Originally posted by Kadett
Actually I'm from (as in born and bred) where you're living now tosser. Also unless you've actually immigrated to Canada you don't know what the **** your talking about, enough said.
Canada tries to plug itself as the best country in the world and thats not the case and as I live here I have every right to say so whether you or other wankers like it or not.

Oh, you mean you are from that overpriced, swarming with immigrants and noisy metrpolis with non-existent transport infrastructure? Then the question remains: what the hell are you doing on this forum? Why don't you bu**er off to some place where they actually accept nationalistic chauvinistic grumpy gits, which even when placed by the Bodensee complain that the air is too clean for them. You will be right in your place there.

PS I absolutely love London, but any place can be looked at a piece of heaven or a corner of hell. It is all in the eyes of the beholder. In other words, the problem is not in Canada, it is in your brain. Pity the condition can't be treated. F**king wanker!

Kadett
09-07-2004, 20:40
Oh, you mean you are from that overpriced, swarming with immigrants and noisy metrpolis with non-existent transport infrastructure? Then the question remains: what the hell are you doing on this forum? Why don't you bu**er off to some place where they actually accept nationalistic chauvinistic grumpy gits, which even when placed by the Bodensee complain that the air is too clean for them. You will be right in your place there.

PS I absolutely love London, but any place can be looked at a piece of heaven or a corner of hell. It is all in the eyes of the beholder. In other words, the problem is not in Canada, it is in your brain. Pity the condition can't be treated. F**king wanker!

Well.......ignorant scum like you will fit in well over here thats for sure!

Canadian1979
09-07-2004, 20:47
Originally posted by Kadett
An thus the Canadian attitude to all outsiders is revealed. Go back to hanging from the trees you ignorant piece of shit!


:confused: Does the world really think Canadians are xenophobic, racist and elitist ?

Hell, I always thought Canada was the worlds leading multicultural, peaceful and open nation. I myself have more international friends then I do "Canadians". I've always seen people getting along perfectly well in Canada. There is no class structure.

As for Kaddett's reasons for trolling this site....well I suspect he's got issues and thinks Moscow would be "easier" than a trip to Bangkok.........silly old letch !

Filimon
09-07-2004, 20:48
Originally posted by Kadett
Well.......ignorant scum like you will fit in well over here thats for sure!

Is that all you've got? Well, I guess, given the stupidity of your previous comments and total absence of discernable arguments, that's what should be expected.

Not even worth replying to.... God bless the "Ignore" button.

Filimon
09-07-2004, 20:50
Originally posted by Canadian1979
:confused: Does the world really think Canadians are xenophobic, racist and elitist ?

Hell, I always thought Canada was the worlds leading multicultural, peaceful and open nation. I myself have more international friends then I do "Canadians". I've always seen people getting along perfectly well in Canada. There is no class structure.

As for Kaddett's reasons for trolling this site....well I suspect he's got issues and thinks Moscow would be "easier" than a trip to Bangkok.........silly old letch !

Ah, sod him! As they say in Russia: "No family is without a freak". There will always be idiots who think the world is there to get them. You can't get upset at them, they need to be pitied and treated. You know, difficult childhood and such :)

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:09
Originally posted by Canadian1979
:confused: Does the world really think Canadians are xenophobic, racist and elitist ?

Hell, I always thought Canada was the worlds leading multicultural, peaceful and open nation. I myself have more international friends then I do "Canadians". I've always seen people getting along perfectly well in Canada. There is no class structure.

As for Kaddett's reasons for trolling this site....well I suspect he's got issues and thinks Moscow would be "easier" than a trip to Bangkok.........silly old letch !


Well thats just the typical Canadian who thinks that all the world loves them and how its so welcoming here. I suggest you go back to the link I posted and read some real immigrant experiences. You just can't accept that your mythical view of Canada is not the reality.

Regarding your last comment, be glad this is not face to face buddy!

Filimon, you're just a wannabe immigrant to Canada, and thats just pathetic. Still if you want evidence about what immigrants face in Canada, I suggest you read the Canadian governments own findings:

Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040517/d040517a.htm)

Filimon
09-07-2004, 21:19
Originally posted by Kadett
Well thats just the typical Canadian who thinks that all the world loves them and how its so welcoming here. I suggest you go back to the link I posted and read some real immigrant experiences. You just can't accept that your mythical view of Canada is not the reality.

Regarding your last comment, be glad this is not face to face buddy!

Filimon, you're just a wannabe immigrant to Canada, and thats just pathetic. Still if you want evidence about what immigrants face in Canada, I suggest you read the Canadian governments own findings:

Statistics Canada (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/040517/d040517a.htm)

That's rich, coming from the guy, who is actually physically in Canada. What are you doing there then if it's so bad?

I don't want to immigrate to Canada. I feel quite comfortable where I am and I can go to any country as and when I please. I said I want to retire there, it's just so peaceful. I can still remember the views and the silence of the West Vancouver.

You need professional help, mate, noone I know who was "born and bred" in London is that angry.

Canadian1979
09-07-2004, 21:26
Kaddett, if you dislike Canada so much, why don't you leave?

Mee thinks yer just a self-hating British wank who never quite fit in anywhere and became bitter about that fact.

Seriously, quit trying to paint other people as ugly.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:40
Hey listen horses for courses, both of you want to perpetuate a myth about Canada and I'm going to see that it doesn't stand, NOT ON MY WATCH. Both of you have a problem because basically you don't like the truth, but thats just a reflection on your own personal dishonesty.

Back to the matter at hand though, here are some recent articles from the Ottawa Citizen regarding how immigrants live and feel in your paradise:

THE OTTAWA CITIZEN SERIES PART 2: JOBS FOR IMMIGRANTS IN OTTAWA
‘Why are we not respected and treated as we should?’
The Ottawa Citizen

New immigrants to Canada often suffer from a lack of social networks, and can feel isolated and confused when facing unfamiliar obstacles in their path to a successful settlement.

CanadaImmigrants.com, a non-profit website, has helped combat this isolation by offering an online forum where immigrants and those considering immigrating to Canada can share questions and experiences and even post their résumés. Here are excerpts from the postings. “I have lived for 16 years in Canada, and I am a graduated accountant. I took an accounting and computer course in the Commerce High School of Ottawa, and I have never gotten a job related to my profession, and when I applied for low positions, they told me that I am overqualified.”
Ramiro José Pomares

“I spent a sad Christmas with no job. I am a doctor. My credentials are not recognized here in Canada. I work part time as a taxi driver.”
Alejandro Angeles, former citizen of Argentina

“You would be very surprised at how many well-educated professional Latinos here in Toronto are cleaning bathrooms, working in restaurants, and doing other menial jobs. Why did we all go to school? To spend our lives doing jobs that require no education whatsoever? Why are we not respected and treated as we should be in this country?”
P. Diaz, Toronto

“Sometimes I wonder if the Canadian government actually cares about all the immigrants that come here hoping to find work.”
Phillipe Langois, Ottawa

“I heard from friends Canada in the best place to live in the whole world, so I wish I could live in such environment.”
Neha Khanna, India

“I have been in Canada for 11 months with my family. We came from Romania and we are very upset regarding ... work possibilities and integration in Canadian society. However, we would like to work and would not like ask the government for social assistance. My 10 years experience is mostly ... as completion and production engineer ... I am able to upgrade my skills to learn more, but my financial situation does not permit these.”
Levente Rado, Calgary

“I am a landed immigrant with five years of experience in the service industry in India. After coming here there has been dejection in all forms, I am seeking placement in the service industry even if it is at the trainee level.”
Nanit Suri, Toronto

“My job applications are being turned down and not given a chance for interview. Even I know that I am overqualified and know that I can do the work effectively. I just hope I can be given a chance for interview near my line of work either in telecommunications, computer, or any office job. I know I need Canadian experience and hope that I be given (a) chance.”

You can comment on the issues raised by the series by e-mailing letters to the editor:

letters@thecitizen.canwest.com

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:43
Is there a cabbie in the house? The cliché about drivers is true

Doctors are among hundreds of foreign-trained professionals ‘rotting’ in jobs, such as driving taxis, where they can’t put their skills to use.



Pauline Tam and Elaine O’Connor

The Ottawa Citizen



After earning his electrical engineering degree in Lebanon, Victor Haddad overhauled aircraft systems in Beirut, but 28 years after immigrating, he is working as a cab driver. Mongolian native Dr. Batsanaa Dayroggojh is a trained cardiologist but, because it would take 10 years to earn such qualifications in Canada, her goal is to be a nurse.

In his native Lebanon, Victor Haddad fixed jumbo jets for a living. After graduating with a university degree in electrical engineering, Mr. Haddad worked at the Beirut airport, overhauling aircraft systems on Boeing jets. When he came to Canada in 1975, his goal was to find similar work, and eventually train as a commercial pilot.

Mr. Haddad never got to put his skills to use.



“When I got here and I applied for a job, I was shocked,” he said. “They told me I needed Canadian work experience and I needed a Canadian licence to repair airplanes. They told me I had to go to school again here and learn about aircraft, even though there’s no difference between an aircraft in Canada and an aircraft in the U.S.”

Despite taking college courses to upgrade his skills, and working toward his pilot’s licence, Mr. Haddad had trouble finding work in his field. Over the years, he dabbled in mechanics, and ran his own business installing taxi meters. But his only steady work was driving a cab. Eventually, the demands of raising a family forced him to abandon his aspirations. Mr. Haddad, 52, is by no means alone.

The odds are good that the driver of the next taxi you take is a highly skilled and educated worker, often a former engineer, teacher or doctor. It’s a shop-worn urban legend, but even Immigration Minister Denis Coderre admits it contains a ring of truth.

“I have nothing against taxi drivers,” Mr. Coderre told a meeting of the Canadian Bar Association earlier this year. “I like them very much because probably every time I’m picking up a cab I have the greatest conversation. Why? Because they’re foreign doctors and they’re not recognized. ”The problem is growing and it’s nationwide. Mr. Haddad, who works for Capital Taxi, remembers a fellow driver from Lebanon who trained as a medical doctor in France. When he arrived in Canada, he found it so difficult to get his credentials recognized that he eventually returned to his home country. Hamid Dadshany, president of the union representing Capital Taxi drivers, knows at least two physicians who were trained in the Middle East, but drive cabs because they’re unable to practise.

Ottawa has an estimated 280 foreign-trained doctors who aren’t practising. Another 600 foreign-trained teachers are either jobless or not working in their field. The numbers are comparable for accountants and business specialists.

Then, there are the estimated 2,000 out-of-work engineers and computer specialists. During the worst of the layoffs in the city’s technology sector, the agency estimates 80 per cent of those laid off were immigrants.”They are just rotting here,” says Abdi Yunis.

This realization hit home for John ApSimon when he sat in a cab driven by a man who said he was a nuclear physicist.”It’s quite frightening,” says the senior executive officer of Vitesse Reskilling Canada, which retrains science and engineering professionals. The trouble is it takes time for a specialist to find work in a precise field. In the meantime, “you come here and you’ve got to set up your life, your career, you’ve probably got family, so you’ve got to earn money, you don’t just sit around and re-skill”. Indeed, the city has so many skilled professionals ferrying taxis that it has become a cliché. ”I have engineers who are working as taxi drivers because it pays them better than if they are working in a small private company where they have no way to use their skills,”

“In the next 10 years, we will be desperate for these people. But we just don’t give them a chance.”



City officials are also concerned about this blatant waste of talent. A recently released study on Ottawa’s labour force paints a negative picture of the way the country appears to mislead skilled immigrants. “In essence, these professionals are brought in to contribute to Canada, and yet they are not allowed to contribute; they are admitted

apparently for their skills, but when they arrive they are not allowed to practise,” states the report, titled Ottawa Works: A Mosaic of Ottawa’s Economic Workforce Landscape.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:44
cont'd

Even before they land in Canada, immigrant professionals such as Batsanaa Dayroggojh seem resigned to starting from scratch. She bubbles with enthusiasm at the thought of one day being able to work in a hospital again. For the moment, English is a struggle, and she has no idea how to get her skills as a cardiologist recognized.

The wife of a diplomat, Dr. Dayroggojh arrived in Canada less than a year ago, after working for a decade in her native Mongolia. She spent eight of those years diagnosing heart disease, and another two in elder care and children’s health. From her 10 years of nursing and medical training, she has earned three university degrees. She speaks Russian and Mongolian fluently. Dr. Dayroggojh understands the need for high standards among Canada’s medical professionals. But given that it could take another 10 years to qualify as a doctor in this country, she is realistic about her prospects. Her long-term goal is to find work as a nurse. Meanwhile, she is taking language courses at Algonquin College, hoping to qualify for the nursing program. ”My skills are OK,” says Dr. Dayroggojh. “Maybe it’s a problem with English—writing, reading, comprehension. That’s what I want to improve on.”

Hundreds of immigrants and potential immigrants have posted their résumés at CanadaImmigrants.com, and qualifications—either while awaiting confirmation of their application or in the hopes an employer will hire them from abroad. They are aeronautical engineers, lawyers, economists, anesthesiologists, microbiologists, professors, pharmacists, chemical engineers, dentists, accountants, and cardiologists.

In many cases, they are willing to lower their professional expectations in exchange for citizenship. The medical-sciences professor from the Dutch Antilles is willing to work as a teacher, the Mexican architect as a construction

worker, the Peruvian engineer as a laboratory maintenance worker. There’s also the Mexican economist prepared to work in credit collections, the Ecuadorean physician as a country doctor, the Colombian zoo technician as a farm labourer.



You can comment on the issues raised by the series by e-mailing letters to the editor:

letters@thecitizen.canwest.com

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:52
and another!

‘Licensing bottleneck’

Accreditation hurdles prevent foreign-trained doctors from using skills



Elaine O’Connor

The Ottawa Citizen



Doctor, dentist, lawyer, nurse, psychologist—as difficult as it is to find a good professional, most Ottawans can count on finding one in an emergency. But for a new immigrant, trying to find a professional, particularly a doctor with whom they can communicate, can be like playing a frustrating game of physician roulette. For a Muslim Somali woman with little command of either official language, for example, the choice of family doctors is severely

limited. Many Muslim women prefer a female doctor (Islamic law does not explicitly ban women from being treated by men, but many women only feel comfortable with a female doctor for intimate exams), yet there are no Somali-speaking female doctors in Ottawa listed in the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario doctor database. No male Somali-speaking doctors either. Trying to find a doctor who speaks one of the other 13 languages spoken in Somalia (including Arabic, Boni, Dabarre and Swahili) would be similarly unsuccessful. There are 40 Arabic-speaking doctors in Ottawa, to serve an Arabic-speaking population of 21,115

Lebanese, 8,280 Somalis and 6,815 Arabs of various nationalities. Just 10 of these doctors are listed as taking new patients in the database as of August 2003. Of these Arabic-speaking doctors, 13 are female, yet just three are listed as taking new patients. A quick call reveals the listings are out of date—just one is taking new patients, and only by referral during her once-a-month office hours.

There are few other options. The college’s listings indicate that of the three Ottawa doctors who speak Swahili, none is taking new patients. There are no doctors fluent in Dabarre in Ottawa and no doctors in Ontario who speak the other dialects. Ms. Bielanska, who has worked for 13 years connecting new immigrants to services, says there are barriers to access even to the foreign-language speaking doctors who are practising in Ottawa—many have English- or French-speaking receptionists. She’ll often call to make appointments for clients and says that, routinely, “I learn when I call that even though a couple weeks back they were still taking clients, it’s not the case anymore.

“If you only have one doctor who speaks Farsi, what can you expect? Even in the Arabic language, the list (of doctors) is getting shorter. Not because of the doctors who can speak it, but because of the doctors who cannot take any more patients,” she says.

“It’s a huge issue,” agrees Joan Atlin, executive director of the Association of International Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (AIPSO). “When we identify under-serviced communities ... we do it on a geographic basis. There’s no way of designating the Somali community as an under-serviced community and trying to target programs to fill that need.”

In the meantime, immigrants make do with English-speaking doctors and hire translators, or bring immigrant services volunteers or relatives to translate. Yet the need for translators places a strain on the agency’s resources, says acting executive director Velinka Nevrencan. More than 10,000 clients from 111 countries walk through the agency’s doors each year; 250 call reception each day. The agency’s 60 staff and 200 volunteers are run ragged trying to meet their needs.

“The difficulty for us is that when we refer the clients either to legal aid or to housing help, nobody can speak their language. (Translation) is still a major part of our work. We try to use volunteers because it’s so time consuming.” But, she says, “there’s often no choice. ”Meanwhile, foreign-trained health care workers who could help meet these needs are languishing in unemployment or underemployment. It’s frustrating for Ms. Nevrencan, especially when she sees foreign-trained doctors working at pizza shops and dentists delivering newspapers. ”It goes back to the whole issue of professional (accreditation) of doctors and lawyers being able to get their licences here,” Ms. Nevrencan says, explaining that the ethnic composition of Ottawa’s professional population has far to go before it reflects the city’s actual ethnic makeup.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:54
cont'd


As a settlement counsellor, Arber Zaplluzha sees up to 10 new foreign-trained doctors a week looking for information on Canadian licensing. There were so many doctors coming through his office that four years ago the agency started a support group. As of this fall, there are 286 educated, experienced foreign-trained doctors in the group, but not one

could help Mr. Zaplluzha recently when he needed a doctor.

“It took me two months to find a physician for my daughter,” says an exasperated Mr. Zaplluzha.

As he tells of his difficulty finding care for his 18-month-old, right across from him sits a foreign-trained pediatrician with 10 years of experience practising in an Eastern European country. She would gladly treat Mr. Zaplluzha’s little girl, but despite her medical degree and experience, despite the fact that in the three years she’s been in Canada she’s passed the Medical Council of Canada Evaluating Examinations and two standardized English tests, she’s not even halfway to being licensed. Instead of helping alleviate the acute family doctor shortage in the city, she volunteers for free at non-profit health organizations.

“I want to work,” the pediatrician says wistfully. “If I’m not successful, what have I spent the last three years doing?”

It’s a familiar scenario. Among the pediatrician’s colleagues are an anesthesiologist with 18 years of experience in a state hospital and a general practitioner with three years of experience, both from Eastern European countries. All of the doctors are studying for the Ontario International Medical Graduate exam next month, hoping to qualify as one of the top 50 applicants in order to enter the program.

In the meantime, one is working at a clothing store for $9 an hour, the other in a drugstore.

“Our chance is very small, very little,” says the anesthesiologist, who, like the pediatrician, refuses to have her name published for fear of jeopardizing her chance of being selected to the program.“I knew what was going on before I came here,” says the general practitioner. “I knew it was going to be hard, but what can I say? I’m struggling. I’m trying to penetrate the system to try to use my skills.”

They all understood the path to practising would be a challenge in Canada, and all say they’d gladly work in related medical fields or in remote communities knowing that Ontario had many more doctors than it needed. Yet while they languish, they hear repeatedly of the province’s doctor shortage, and that leaves them frustrated and confused.



These 286 Ottawa doctors are just a fraction of the estimated 3,000 to 4,000 foreign-trained physicians in the province, says Ms. Atlin, of the Association of International Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario.

“We have hundreds in all of the fields that are in the greatest shortage, family medicine, obstetrics, gynecology, we have general surgeons, we have anesthetists,” she says.

More than 1,300 have registered in the organization’s database of internationally trained physicians unable to practise in Ontario. Among them are 384 family physicians and general practitioners, 95 obstetricians, 45 general surgeons and 39 anesthetists, all in short supply in the profession. ”That’s why we’re arguing that we don’t so much have a doctor shortage in the province as we have a licensing bottleneck,” Ms. Atlin says.

The association was founded in 1998 by Dr. Muhammad Rafiq, a Pakistani doctor who saw his fellow South Asian physicians struggling to find work in Ontario.

The group began with 70 people; today members hail from more than 80 countries; the majority (62 per cent) have been in practice at least five years in their home country, while more than one-third (37 per cent) have in excess of 10 years of experience. These doctors possess the specialist medical knowledge and diverse language skills in demand in Ontario’s large cities—yet a 2000 membership employment survey found most were working in short-term jobs as factory workers, waiters, telemarketers and security guards.

It’s telling, Ms. Atlin says, that Dr. Rafiq has since moved back to Pakistan with his family, where he teaches medicine at a university. He’s not the only foreign-trained physician to leave Canada in search of work. Recently, one of his clients, a Russian female physician who speaks fluent English, has a PhD and a solid history as a medical researcher, couldn’t find a job. Reluctantly, she looked across the border and within weeks found and accepted a position in her field.

Skilled immigrants, Mr. Tsegaye says, “are coming here, they are accessing our services and a year or two later they move to the States. We’re losing twice. So why did we recruit them in the first place?”

The provincial government and the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario have introduced several new programs to help integrate these medical professionals before we lose them. A new bridging program, the Assessment Program for International Medical Graduates, introduced in November 2001, has allowed 54 physicians skilled in specialties such as anesthesia, family medicine, general surgery, obstetrics, pediatrics, internal medicine and psychiatry, to be assessed by one of five Ontario medical schools to ensure they meet standards without requiring them to repeat their education.

Kadett
09-07-2004, 21:55
cont'd

“We saw a need to look at the path to licensure to see whether there was anything that could be done for those individuals who have had recent clinical experience, but on paper do not meet all requirements,” says Catherine Clark of the college, which advocated for the program. This program complements the existing Ontario International Medical Graduate program, founded in the 1980s, which allows 50 foreign-trained doctors a year to complete post-graduate studies to bring them up to Ontario practice standards.



A second new initiative, which began taking applications in July, aims to accredit 80 new doctors over the next three years. This Registration Through Practice Assessment program provides a fast-track for out-of province physicians who are currently practising and can have their skills validated through clinical observation.

“This is an ongoing issue,” Ms. Clark says of the foreign-trained doctors situation. “These are short-term, modest solutions. “The government has increased medical-school enrolment, which is a longer-term solution. I don’t think there is one easy answer to this problem; it’s in trying to address it from a number of different approaches that gains will be made.”



You can comment on the issues raised by the series by e-mailing letters to the editor:

letters@thecitizen.canwest.com

Filimon
10-07-2004, 11:49
÷ÏÉÎÓÔ×ÕÀÝÉÊ ÐÁÒÁÎÏÉË × ÄÅÊÓÔ×ÉÉ.

What a pillock!

Dave
10-07-2004, 18:22
I could not resist rebuttal any longer. I feel sorry for your plight, to foster such feelings of social resentment must truly be unbearable, however, I do believe your throwing rocks at the wrong window...take a look inside. Shouldn't you wonder why by now, you've changed the book cover twice and wishing for a third, but the story remains the same? I don't claim Canada to be the best country, maybe there is better, maybe that depends on your qualifying factors of best. Canadians on whole are not overly patriotic as our roots are from many nations, with the exception of Native American Indians, with whom our country's history has dealt many undeserved setbacks. Canada is comprised of immigrants, 90 % immigrants, 3rd, 4th, 5th generation...but all immigrants. Our culture is a stew of many cultures..so to mistreet immigrants...who would that be, the only people I've ever seen mistreeted (as a distinctive culture) would be the only NATIVE Canadians, the Indians, as for the rest of us we are all immigrants. In regards to the original thread, airfare on Aeroflot is about $800 Canadian, return to Toronto (lots of seat sales available, just watch for them), it is the only direct flight from Moscow shortens the trip by 3 or more hours. In regards to the immigration proccess I haven't the slightest idea; however, I would suggest (what seems common sense to me) unless you are escaping a dangerous or volitile country in which case who cares just run, then a couple things to consider; don't expect to go to another country and have service in your native tongue; ensure your skills are in demand and recognized before you depart, or your willing to accept a lower job; dont expect the red carpet treatment, you'll need to struggle like all of us immigrants before you (currently, Canadian children have the same strugle for jobs, happens in a country with 7-12 % unemployement rates - the above newspaper quotes could just as easily come from any Canadian University Graduate); and lastly...do your homework and know what to expect...don't let the previously portrayed culture shock hit you as hard as it has my discontented Countryman/woman. I'm proud to be Canadian - for many reasons that can be varied from one person to another - but mostly I see Canada as a quite, relaxed, friendly Country. We are not the biggest, richest, most powerful, most beautiful - just Canada, takes us for what we are (and yes, we do have discrimination - but I think it is less and improving quicker then most countries).
Anyway, my two loonies worth...take it for what you will.

Kadett
10-07-2004, 19:39
Originally posted by Filimon
÷ÏÉÎÓÔ×ÕÀÝÉÊ ÐÁÒÁÎÏÉË × ÄÅÊÓÔ×ÉÉ.

What a pillock!

Best you can do eh? Well I guess you don't like overwhelming evidence contary to your own narrow view, though God knows why some nouveau riche Russian living in London has such an emotional investment in arguing about something he knows nothing about! How you actually survive in London is really beyond me!

Dave, aside from your psycho babble, (BTW I have always held a Canadian passport and indeed half of my family are Canadian, and I am here (temporarily) for family reasons. I've done relatively OK here and it will be a good steppingstone into the US). The above quotes could indeed come from a Canadian graduate, and that in itself is fundamentally problem here different from most western countries.
However the fundamental difference between them and immigrants is that the latter are blatently encouraged to come here by CIC, when CIC know full well that engineers and medical professionals, amongst others, are quite unlikely to ever work in their field here. But ask most immigrants and they will tell you that Canadian immigration official TOLD them they could find employment in their field, or that their skills were in demand. Now if this was honestly stated on the Canadian Embassy's wall then I'd have no problem, but the fact is as it stands right now the independent skilled class of immigration to Canada is a travesty and any claim to the contrary is a barefaced lie.

Filimon
11-07-2004, 01:47
Originally posted by Kadett
[B]Best you can do eh? Well I guess you don't like overwhelming evidence contary to your own narrow view, though God knows why some nouveau riche Russian living in London has such an emotional investment in arguing about something he knows nothing about! How you actually survive in London is really beyond me!



Are you really that dumb or only pretend to be? I know of no embassy, be it Russian in London, British in Moscow or Canadian in Burkina Faso, that provided efficient service or told something a person wanted to hear. British embassy in Moscow told me that I could not travel to Britain with an expired passport with a visa and a new passport without one. Russian embassy in London ...that's a different story altogether. That is not the point though.

The point is that no matter how good or bad the state of things in one country or another, it does not give anyone the right to walk into a conversation and start insulting people simply due to the fact that their opinion is different. Read your first post as if you are the author of the thread or the person you addressed that post to and think what you would have felt, had it been addressed to you. OK, Canadian government sucks (tell which one doesn't), what does it have to do with people of Canada? My best friend is Canadian, his former girlfriend, still my firend is Chinese Canadian, I have met a lot of decent people there. Good friends of mine emigrated there and live a good life. Why do you feel the need to throw mud all over them?

Some people's intentions, whatever is the reason behind them, can never be understood.

If anything, it is you who demean the others' perception of Canadians. Thank God you are most certainly an exception. THAT I know.

Well, as I said earlier: it's your problem, not that of Canada or Canadians. Be a good boy - talk to a shrink.

Kadett
11-07-2004, 02:27
Once more to the ramparts eh. You really are a wacko aren't you. You don't know what the situation is for immigrants to Canada because you've never done the process (so you claim). Come back and talk about it when you actually have! Look at the CIC website under skilled idependent class and the blurb is pretty clear.

This thread started with someone who wants to immigrate to Canada. Well then, they better know the real situation and not rely on idiots like you who have never been there but are nonetheless WANNABES, aka instant experts on Canada. Whats the matter didn't you get enough points when you applied?

Fact is you don't like to hear another side because you can't accept another view which is contrary to your own limited experience. I guess you never went to the East Side of Vancouver, I bet you'd have a different view of life here then.

Anyway point is this is clearly some kind of great mental issue for you. So I'm game to rumble here as long as it takes, because I live here and have every right to show evidence contrary to yours. BTW where's your evidence that Canada is a wonderland, aside from the experiences gleaned from your own limited intellect?

YOUR MOVE

DPG
11-07-2004, 02:36
Moved to expat cafe.

Try to keep it friendly and civil please chaps - less of the personal insults...

Thanks

DPG

Filimon
11-07-2004, 03:22
Originally posted by Kadett
Once more to the ramparts eh. You really are a wacko aren't you. You don't know what the situation is for immigrants to Canada because you've never done the process (so you claim). Come back and talk about it when you actually have! Look at the CIC website under skilled idependent class and the blurb is pretty clear.

This thread started with someone who wants to immigrate to Canada. Well then, they better know the real situation and not rely on idiots like you who have never been there but are nonetheless WANNABES, aka instant experts on Canada. Whats the matter didn't you get enough points when you applied?

Fact is you don't like to hear another side because you can't accept another view which is contrary to your own limited experience. I guess you never went to the East Side of Vancouver, I bet you'd have a different view of life here then.

Anyway point is this is clearly some kind of great mental issue for you. So I'm game to rumble here as long as it takes, because I live here and have every right to show evidence contrary to yours. BTW where's your evidence that Canada is a wonderland, aside from the experiences gleaned from your own limited intellect?

YOUR MOVE

There is going to be no ramble unless you start talking instead of insulting people. You make too many assumptions and conclusions about what experiences I, or other people on this forum, have had or might have had. ALL of them are plain wrong and insulting.

The friends I mentioned above live in East Vancouver. Not the best place to live, but far better than Shadwell or Hackney in London. They are a glaring example of success in Canada that I have in front of my eyes. The head of the family is a marine engineer who works in construction of engines for yachts and powerboats. Found a job almost immediately upon arrival. His English skills whilst quite commendable were not up to scratch, but he was employed nevertheless. Your evidence so far consisted of quotes from articles. Don't tell me you actually believe the media! If you are so fond of conspiracy theories, here is one for you: the articles are a ploy by the evil Canadian government to try and keep immigrants from coming. How is that for a paranoid tendency?

Whatever the reason or need for the immigration of the authors of this thread, it hardly warrants the attitude "you want to go to Canada - you must be stupid". Nothing stupid about it, anyone should have a right to decide where and how to live. Advice is one thing - insult is quite another.

Dave
11-07-2004, 03:49
So, I check out the CIC website like you say (www.cic.gc.ca), and all i find are warnings to check your credentials to ensure you can work ion Canada, as well CIC places many caveats clearly indicating that their review of your credentials in know way implies your ability to work in Canada. A small sample of the page:

"Before you immigrate, you should learn as much as possible about working in Canada. Your preparations should include updating your résumé and talking to friends, family, and potential employers about the job situation in the part of Canada in which you wish to settle.

Read this section to find answers to some of your questions about finding a job and working in Canada.

Note: There is no guarantee that you will find work in your preferred occupation. You should know that, in order to work:

you may need to have your credentials (degrees and diplomas) assessed and recognized;
you may have to be licensed;
you may need to take additional courses;
you may need to successfully complete examinations; and/or
you may need to take a job specific language test.
The immigration selection process does not require you to have a credential assessment, recognition of your credentials and licensing. But, they are important steps to help you find work in Canada."

Unless I have somehow misinterpretted this "blurb", a fail to recognize the part where immigration services is coercing skilled immigrants to come fill our shortage of cab drivers.

If I may be so forward to ask; assuming Canada is as bad as you say (and I just dont see it), I would imagine the rest of your Canadian family is heading South as well?

Zephyr
11-07-2004, 04:13
Originally posted by Filimon
÷ÏÉÎÓÔ×ÕÀÝÉÊ ÐÁÒÁÎÏÉË × ÄÅÊÓÔ×ÉÉ.

What a pillock!
To say the very very least maybe he has been touched by a little more than paranoia :-)